Workflow: 1080 60p from Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera

[Doug Buckser]

G’day,

Yes, I’m thinking about buying this camera as well. I wouldn’t buy it, though, if I can’t edit the footage using FCP 7.

Regards,
Doug

[Jessica Mathies]

Hi Khashyar,

I too am looking to buy this camera, but am hesitant because I need to edit in Final Cut. Can someone please advise us on which workflow would be ideal?

Also, in regards to Doug’s comment, I know that you can edit the footage in Final Cut. Apparently Final Cut does not natively support the AVCHD format, but you using Compressor, you can edit the footage one you compress it using the AppleRes codec. I’ve also heard you can log and transfer your footage and that will automatically apply Apple Res.

But again, can someone please offer a good workflow for the Panasonic HDC-TM700 / HS700 and FCP?

Thanks,
Jessica

Jessica

[Gary Adcock]

[Jessica Mathies] “I too am looking to buy this camera, but am hesitant because I need to edit in Final Cut. Can someone please advise us on which workflow would be ideal? “

Jessica

1080 60p does not exist on a prosumer cameras, that is a professional format that requires a DUAL LINK signal (2-HDSDI or 1-3G HDSDI connection). You will need a high end VIdeo card ( AJA or BMD) card at minimum to be able to handle that signal or to load in the easy set ups to be able to do this.

There are only about 12 camera models or types that support 1080 60p and all of them cost in excess of $60K USD

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Chris Bennett]

There are only about 12 camera models or types that support 1080 60p and all of them cost in excess of $60K USD

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows for the Digitally Inclined
Chicago, IL

Gary

Have you had a chance to check out this range of camcorders? I have the TM700. It does shoot natively in 1080 60p and the files are superb. It is also possible to edit in FCP but you have to convert the files first. The best way is to rewrap the files with an application called “Clipwrap”. This will also transcode it if you want. I deciding to edit the material in ProRes 422. This works great but I am still fiddling with compressor settings to do justice to it on output. (I have only had it for two days and I have been busy with other stuff)

The Panasonic HDC-xx700 series cameras are amazing machines though. The lens is a match for the file quality and it goes wide at 35mm (35mm equivalent). It also has a lot of manual control. I was about to go for a Canon as a stealth camera before I came across this. It will be a great go anywhere action camera.

chriscotech

[Gary Adcock]

[Chris Bennett] “Have you had a chance to check out this range of camcorders? I have the TM700. It does shoot natively in 1080 60p and the files are superb. It is also possible to edit in FCP but you have to convert the files first.”

Chris,

Yes I have tested this camera as part of a project I was working on and according to my hardware the signal is not 60p but actually line doubled 60i as would be the nature of the processing out an HDMI signal.

FCP does handle 1080 60p but only with 3rd party video cards, not natively within the application itself, as working in 1080 60p currently requires either a dual link or 3G connection to be handled properly in post.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Chris Bennett]

Gary

Thanks for your reply. That’s very interesting. Forgive my ignorance. I am a still photographer. I have some motion picture camera experience, with film and video, but nowhere near enough experience in post.

I was assuming Panasonic’s claim was correct because in the FCP browser the rewrapped footage is listed as 1080, 60fps and progressive. I must say this is all very confusing. Should I “convert” the files to what Final Cut knows to be 60i ?

Chris

chriscotech

[Gary Adcock]

Chris, no issues

this is what the Cow is all about, I just happen to be a real geek in regards to the video signal stuff.

[Chris Bennett] “I was assuming Panasonic’s claim was correct because in the FCP browser the rewrapped footage is listed as 1080, 60fps and progressive.”

Very interesting- we never got to that stage- we rejected the camera based on what the scopes were telling us (it was for a feature and we needed to match much higher end cameras)
The footage may very well read that way- but “line doubling” means that the file is only half the vertical resolution due to the duplication of every other line=

I am going to assume that you do not have a video output for your work, (like a kona or matrox card in your computer) and therefor you not ever see some of the issues related to a true 60P workflow.

1080 60p like its cousin 720p60 (note different “p” position) on the higher end cameras support VFR or variable frame rate captures allowing the shooter to “overcrank” or “undercrank” the footage to slow it down or speed it up. There are a relative few consumer devices that can handle that frame rate for playback ( like on your TV set – we are talking about editing video here)

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640

[Chris Bennett]

Gary

Although I haven’t heard of line doubling before, it makes sense. I am guessing that it would be visible when looking oat a single frame. It seems like a way of disguising what is basically a padded out interlaced file and getting away with calling it “P”.

I bought this camera with overcranking in mind. So much so that I deliberately didn’t get the PAL version, which is correct for my region. I get 20% more frame rate that way and NTSC is better for web shooting. The conversion doesn’t drop frames either. I have played with overcranking before on an old 35mm Arri (Expensive!) I guess there are no free lunches.

I still find this camera very useful for its wide lens and manual control. I needed the best thing I could take to remote places and I’m pretty pleased with this so far.

Thanks for your helpful information.

chriscotech

[Dennis Couzin]

Gary Adcock can’t believe that the $1000 Panasonic HDC-TM700 shoots 1080 60p so he makes up a story about it line-doubling. No, Panasonic isn’t so stupid to fill up memory twice as fast with “padding” which is no more than the most primitive deinterlace will achieves in playback. Fact is: the Panasonic is shooting 1080 60p; there are many passionate believers in 1080 60p among Japanese image scientists and Panasonic’s couldn’t hold back. Panasonic disturbed Sony by this mutation of their AVCHD standard and now is disturbing FCP7 users (since while the ProRes codec allows 1080 60p, FCP7 refuses to transcode the improper Panasonic AVCHD 1080 60p to ProRes 1080 60p). Clipwrap to the rescue.

The Panasonic HDC-TM700’s 1080 60p is no cheat, but it’s a cheesy 1080 60p because of the high factor of interframe compression. Uncompressed 8-bit 4:2:2 1080 60p requires 1898 Mb/s. The Panasonic HDC-TM700 is recording 28 Mb/s. The 68:1 compression factor is the cheese. From the way it looks, the intraframe compression is perhaps around 7:1 and the interframe compression is perhaps around 10:1. When action (or camera movement) is slow the picture looks great because 7:1 intraframe compression, with all those pixels, is hardly visible. But when action (or camera movement) is fast the image is jumpy, unrealistic, and looks nasty. (These are my preliminary observations — we’ve had an HDC-HS700 for just a few days.) Panasonic wanted the camera to work reliably with all Class 4 SDHC flash cards, so their maximum 28 Mb/s was reasonable and an essential limitation of the camera. According to my image tastes they should have set the H.264 parameters to greater intraframe compression with less interframe, but something had to be sacrificed.

Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s. (It’s 10-bit.) Comparing this with Uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 1080 60p, the ProRes compression is 8:1, purely intraframe. Based on the previous paragraph’s estimates, the intraframe compression of ProRes is comparable to the intraframe compression of the Panasonic HDC-TM700. This implies that the huge 9x or 10x increase in file size when transcoding the HDC-TM700 to ProRes is due to the elimination of all the interframe compression in the former. So it is a mistake to use ProRes LT transcoding with this original, because it will compromise the I-frames. There could even be a slight benefit to using ProRes HQ.

I’m voting with Panasonic and getting into 1080 60p (really 50p here) now, before affordable and less cheesy 1080 60p cameras become available. They surely will.

I wish never to be in K. Darvich’s situation of having to intercut 30p footage having no interframe compression (shot with still camera) with 60p footage having high interframe compression (shot with Panasonic HDC-TM700). If the release will be 30p, the transcode from 60p to 30p should be better than that from 60i to 30p. But if the release will be 60i then the 30p footage should be transcoded 60i and the Panasonic HDC-TM700 camera can shoot 60i (in mode HA). If the release format is unknown or various, then shoot 60p and transcode the 30p to 60p, and edit so all cuts are at even frame numbers.

[Gary Adcock]

[Dennis Couzin] “Gary Adcock can’t believe that the $1000 Panasonic HDC-TM700 shoots 1080 60p so he makes up a story about it line-doubling.”

Actually Dennis, if you read the post over again I said I tested via hardware as part of a project I was working on.

For the record most of the consumer HDMI specifications include line doubling to allow for the HDMI’s need for true progressive output when the incoming signal to the device is interlace, which is the case for all 1080 broadcast signal.

” FCP7 refuses to transcode the improper Panasonic AVCHD 1080 60p to ProRes 1080 60p)”

Could this be because the signal is not what it says it is? Or did you not properly configure your editor to handle the format.

I can and have done 1080 60p captures directly into FCP via a Kona 3 card from Professional HDCamSR master recorded from a Sony F23.

[Dennis Couzin] “Apple ProRes for 1080 60p uses 293 Mb/s. “

That does not correlate to any data thruput numbers I have for any released version of ProRes.

All ProRes flavors are measured in Mbps and the number you posted does not correspond to any of the published Apple numbers for the compression- If I remember correctly these are the data rates as published.

PR4444 @ 330Mbps,
PRHQ @ 220 Mbps
PRSQ @ 145Mbps
PRLT @ 100Mbps
PRPX @ 45 Mbps.

I state again that even at the high end, there is little or no support for handling 1080 60p content, which as a professional signal requires dual link HDSDI or 3G cabling and monitoring to accurately handle the image and most cameras that use this high a frame rates for doing offspeed capture and playback.

gary adcock
Studio37

Post and Production Workflow Consultant
Production and Post Stereographer
Technology Development
Quality Assurance Assistance

Chicago, IL

https://blogs.creativecow.net/24640