Why is DVCPRO HD 720p24 preset reverting to 59.94?

[Gary Adcock]

[tangier Clarke] “Folks, I am using the DVCPRO HD 720p24 preset to capture taht type of footage via firewire from an HD1200A deck. When my capture is done, none longer than 25 minutes, the clip turns up at 59.94 frame rate.”

you are sure that the footage is all 23.98?
/ no color bars / no speed changes / you’re using the easy set up for 720p24?

[tangier Clarke] “is there a way to remove the pull down after capture, because the REMOVE ADVANCED PULLDOWN format on the tape doesn’t allow that because it seems it works only for NTSC video.”

you need to go to the panasonic web site to get the Frame Rate Converter {FRC}
https://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=R&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=70438&catGroupId=15767&modelNo=AJ-HD1200A&surfModel=AJ-HD1200A

the link for the frame rate converters is listed at the bottom right of the page.

I was told that Panasonic does not support the advanced cadence for true progressive capture.
However , the 24pA format is supported in HD when using content recorded as 1080 / 24pA from the HVX200 camera.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Sean Oneil]

Is this Varicam?

Advanced 3:2:2:3 Pulldown is something different and is only for certain NTSC DV formats. Don’t ever use it unless you know it is advanced pulldown. Regular 3:2 pulldown must be removed using other methods.

Regardless, there isn’t ANY type of 3:2 on your footage. It’s just 24p recorded with redundant frames making it 60p.

Varicam records everything at 60p no matter what your “true” framerate is. Like the good man mentioned, use the Panasonic frame converter to make it 24p if you like. Or just edit at 60p like I do. Playback looks the same either way.

Sean

[Gary Adcock]

[Sean ONeil] “Advanced 3:2:2:3 Pulldown is something different and is only for certain NTSC DV formats. Don’t ever use it unless you know it is advanced pulldown. Regular 3:2 pulldown must be removed using other methods.”

Please Note that the HVX200 camera can record 1080 content using the Advanced algorithms, this is the ONLY high def content I know of that is captured with advanced pulldown. [Sean ONeil]

“Regardless, there isn’t ANY type of 3:2 on your footage. It’s just 24p recorded with redundant frames making it 60p”

all 720p video runs at 60 frames on the tape, panasonic uses the standard 3:2 pulldown on all 24 frame content — thats why FCP can remove the additional frames when capturing – however the cadence or timing of the additional “duplicate” frames varies dramatically when the content is shot frame rates other than 24. Hence the reason for a frame rate converter.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Joseph Bradley]

When you are capturing set the preset the way you have and check the box(FCP5) that says, ‘Remove advanced pulldown”. Everything should come out just fine. Remember that digital will always record at either 29.97 or 59.94 no matter what frame rate you assigned.

[Gary Adcock]

[jbrad2] “When you are capturing set the preset the way you have and check the box(FCP5) that says, ‘Remove advanced pulldown”. Everything should come out just fine. Remember that digital will always record at either 29.97 or 59.94 no matter what frame rate you assigned.”

What???
No– there is not advanced pulldown cadence in any way, shape or form with progressive material.
the advanced cadence (2:3:3:2) is used to alleviate the “mushy” C-Frame issue when reverse telecine is done using the standard 3:2 pulldown. It does not exist with “true” progressive capture

720p content is always 60 frames on tape- it cannot be 29.97
It always has to be 59.94 – that is the SMPTE spec (for North America).

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA

[Tangier Clarke]

Thanks for all of the replies floks, but I am curious. If there’s is no cadence info (which I believe there is) recorded to tape by the Varicam in 24p mode, then why should Apple bother even making a preset for it? Additionally, I have been successful at capturing 23.98 fps DVCPRO HD using the 720p24 preset in FCP, but only when I use the CAPTURE NOW button, and during an occasional in/out capture.

I just pulled the full 60 (59.94), which the 720p24 preset reverted to anyway after capturing finished.

I’ ve never had any need for the FRC at all. Since the Varicam will record the appropriate redundant frames in the 60fps space depending on what frame rate shooting mode you are in, it seems that the only benefit of capturing and/or cutting at a different framerate/timebase is to save hard drive space, the possibility of going straight to DVD, or just to be consistent with shooting/ editing frame rates. Either way, when viewing on an NTSC (or HD) monitor or outputting the final product the footage has to be converted to the HD or NTSC frame rate space.

So back to square one – is the FCP DVCPRO HD 720p24 redundant? If there are no cadence bits on the tape, then FCP shouldn’t know what to do with 720p24 footage, but I have actually managed to capture it that way (with inconsistent performance).

I’ll stick to my full 59.94 ingest, but I’d still like to get some of these issues resolved. Maybe it’s time to call Jan Crittenden at Panasonic

Thanks again everyone.

Tangier

[Gary Adcock]

[tangier Clarke] ” If there’s is no cadence info (which I believe there is) recorded to tape by the Varicam in 24p mode, then why should Apple bother even making a preset for it?”

Of course there are dupe frames on the DVCPROHD tapes! How else would 24 frames play inside of the 60 frames on the tape. Panasonic uses the standard 3:2 pulldown on all of their progressive content. They do not use the advanced pulldown on progressive content.

[tangier Clarke] “Additionally, I have been successful at capturing 23.98 fps DVCPRO HD using the 720p24 preset in FCP, but only when I use the CAPTURE NOW button,”
I asked how and what you were capturing in my first post
https://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?forumid=8&postid=876462
TC breaks, color bars, speed changes in the content being recorded all can cause a capture to revert back to 59.94 in FCP. if the cadence is not the 3:2 FCP is looking for it reverts back to the native rate on the tape.

[tangier Clarke] “I’ ve never had any need for the FRC at all.”

too bad. it is a wonderful extension of FCP to be able to use camera controlled offspeed frame rates.
it is one of the best reasons to shoot with a varicam. The hardware version of the FRC is $22K, in FCP it is free.

Gary Adcock
HD Solutions Post Chair
NAB 2006

[Sean Oneil]

Yes, listen to Gary. He knows what he’s talking about.

Gary, I understand the Varicam @ 24p uses the same pattern as 3:2 pulldown. But because it’s not interlaced it is not mixing together fields that do not match. So I wouldn’t consider it the same thing. The difference is significant because for example, you could scale it to 1080i without having to first do a reverse telecine.

Sean

[Gary Adcock]

[Sean ONeil] ” I understand the Varicam @ 24p uses the same pattern as 3:2 pulldown. But because it’s not interlaced it is not mixing together fields that do not match. So I wouldn’t consider it the same thing. The difference is significant because for example, you could scale it to 1080i without having to first do a reverse telecine.”

File conversion is the last step of any edit process. the cross conversion to 1080 stays at 24 in my world. so the conversion to 1080 24 as the last step and the 1200a and 1700 series decks do this easily.

The varicam does not shoot 1080 only 720, if your going to work at 24p there is not a need to use advanced pulldown – the content is progressive. The 24pA cadence issues came from the time when we were tying to get the most out of interlaced content when nothing properly supported 24p timelines in the NLE’s space. Panasonic pioneered it with the DVX100. FCP does a fine job of handling the 24pA content in SD.

The reality is that other than the HVX200 I am aware of No 1080 HD or HDV cameras that capture in the 24pA mode. HDCAM only records the 24 frames to tape, Sony HDV uses a proprietary 24 frame cadence I have never been able to extract. Canon HDV only works in the camera so go ahead and chew up your record heads.

SO if you are shooting HD @24fps do not go back and forth thru the interlace.
Capture at 24p stay at 24p

DVCPROHD compressed 1080p24 content is about 11 megs a second for the data rate from the drives and DVCPROHD 720p24 is only about 5.5 megs a second — so why go thru all of the extra hassles when this things are easily done over FW at the Native 24fps.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA