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Whither P2?
I’m trying to get my head around the P2 concept, and I have some questions:
1) Why not just record onto a hard drive? There seem to be some major advantages here: way more capacity and way less money. Also you cut out the transfer step which is necessary because P2 (because of the price) is strictly a temporary storage medium. Yeah, I know – no moving parts. SO WHAT? Disk drives are relatively simple mechanisms (compared to tape), and a mature technology. Quite power efficient, too. Any environment extreme enough to affect a disk drive will likely affect other camera components as well.
2) Reliability. If I’m going to buy a $2,000. memory card, I want it to last for many years, even though it will be exposed to static, physical shock (dropping), dirt, humidity, etc. I can be somewhat less demanding for a $100. hard drive, a $30. Blu Ray disk, or a $4. DV tape. I would be interested in real world long term media survival prospects for this expensive medium.
3) Archiving. Both tape and optical disk offer the advantage of producing a master which is permanent and stable. Of course, P2 could be copied to this media as well, but because it is an extra time consuming step not required in the production process, human nature dictates that as often as not it won’t get done.
4) Media costs and/or media management complexity in the field go way up for long duration recording.
Are there any real advantages for P2?
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37 Replies
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1) you need a RAID of drives for the data rate of DVCProHD. P2 uses a RAID of memory cards, which keeps it compact and much less power consumption.
2) because it’s not the value of the card or drive you’re protecting, but the value of the footage on it!
3) because it’s data, you can send a backup off working knowing it will work, so automated backup solutions will make this painless
4) P2 is not the solution to everything.
All I have to do is look at digital photography. People used to use tiny compact flash sized hard drives, but now that memory is so cheap and much faster, it’s completely replaced them. Hard drives and optical discs in cameras are as temporary a solution as tape it. Memory is most definately the way of the future, and Panasonic are very interested in bringing the cost of the cards down, and the HVX200 is the thing that’s going to do it.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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[Graeme Nattress] “1) you need a RAID of drives for the data rate of DVCProHD.”
If we are talking about hard drives every new 2.5″ or 3.5″ hdd can handle even the fastest dvcprohd.
100Mbps is only 12.5MBps. No need for raids anymore. And in very near future even cf cards will handle 12.5Mbps. -
I cant see alot of people spending $6000 on a camera just to turn around and pay $4000 to be able to shoot 16 minutes of HD with it. These will have to come down in price or they will not sell any, and if they are serious about pushing the tech, they would use this camera as a vehicle for that market penetration, I think this is what we will see….just a thought.
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If, presuming 2.5″ or 3.5″ HDD’s can handle the 12.5 MB/s data rate of DVCPRO HD, will the HVX200 have the ability to spit live video out the FireWire to an external field drive?
Is anyone making a portable drive at this point that will function as a DVCPRO HD field recorder and directly mount on an NLE (without copying)? I know there are many such beasts in the 25 MB/s DV world. It seems that it would only be a matter of time.
How about a device that would allow easy use and swapping of commodity SATA drives, while containing the power and 1394 interface in a field hardened enclosure? This would be hard to beat in terms of cost and speed.
On another note, does the HD RAID requirement for current P2 cards on the HVX200 mean that it is impossible to record uninterrupted HD video for more than sixteen minutes? Then if you want to continue recording, you have to buy another set of P2 cards or wait while your files are transferred to a hard drive in the field? Does this field transfer device exist at this point?
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The mistake is to see the camera as a $6000 camera and P2 costing $4000, you should view it as a $10k P2 High def camera, now that is cheap !
There is a big market for this camera but only for people who charge proper rates for the job sorry but if you cannot make a $10k camera pay for itself over 2yrs then your in the wrong business.
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[NICK B] “The mistake is to see the camera as a $6000 camera and P2 costing $4000, you should view it as a $10k P2 High def camera, now that is cheap !
There is a big market for this camera but only for people who charge proper rates for the job sorry but if you cannot make a $10k camera pay for itself over 2yrs then your in the wrong business.”
Yeah this is true,I just wish Panasonic will compliment this camera with the lens like on JVC 100 which I saw at SMPTE 05 in Sydney only a few days ago.But after talking to Panasonic engineer,I think this will not happen…and it is a real pity.
JVC 100 was a great hit Down Under.It is ergonomicly designed by cameramen,
has got good basic glass in front of it and it just feels great on shoulder.It is cheap to shoot with.Tape is cheap.Sure it is not HD like
Pana 200,but I can see lots of people running with it.
Pana 200 will be bought by lesser amount of people…lens is the big disadvantage here….and Sony Z1,well it is an overpriced camera today.
I like the idea behind Panasonic 200,I just wish they will use some decent lens as well to make it work.
jiri vrozina -
What is the problem with the Panasonic 200 lens?
In keeping with the title of this posting, if Panasonic does not have a third party way of recording in HD off the camera (as in a hard drive) Panasonic is in for a rude awakening. They can try all the mind control and lean on all the savants that fall in line and repeat what ever the marketing line is. Most of this Orwellean speak starts with you have to open you mind to a new way fo thinking and ends with if you dont open your mind you are wrong, as in you just don’t get it. All those lost sales, becasue Panasonic thought MII was our fault.
I think they will recover from such a spill (if there is no alt to the P2) because some VP will get fired for not selling enough to fill a small closet, the replacment VP will get it. How soon after the camera goes on sale do you think the first one will pop up on ebay? We know what the problem is before they sell the first camera, I look forward to being wrong.
As I understand it Panasonic has other P2 cameras for sale right now, notice how little action there is on this forum…whither P2 indeed.
Chris
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[Eric Jurgenson] “If, presuming 2.5″ or 3.5” HDD’s can handle the 12.5 MB/s data rate of DVCPRO HD, will the HVX200 have the ability to spit live video out the FireWire to an external field drive?
Yes, it can already do that. Any manufacturer who develops a Firestore or QuickCapture-style device, and can handle the data rate, could make a drive to do exactly what you’re asking. Already (if the camera were here now) you could plug it into an NLE and capture the data stream straight to hard disk.Is anyone making a portable drive at this point that will function as a DVCPRO HD field recorder and directly mount on an NLE (without copying)?
Yes, Focus is developing a FireStore to do exactly that. And Serious Magic is working on HD Rack for DVCPRO-HD. And other manufacturers may offer products as well.How about a device that would allow easy use and swapping of commodity SATA drives, while containing the power and 1394 interface in a field hardened enclosure? This would be hard to beat in terms of cost and speed.
That’s what I’m hoping for. Basically a DVCPRO-HD version of the FireStore FS-3.On another note, does the HD RAID requirement for current P2 cards on the HVX200 mean that it is impossible to record uninterrupted HD video for more than sixteen minutes? Then if you want to continue recording, you have to buy another set of P2 cards or wait while your files are transferred to a hard drive in the field? Does this field transfer device exist at this point?”
P2 can record indefinitely as long as you keep hot-swapping cards. There is a field device (the “P2 Store”) which automatically copies the contents of a card onto its internal hard disk and erases the card, ready for hot-swapping back into the camera. If you had enough storage available, you could record for hours and hours uninterrupted by continually hot-swapping cards.—————–
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The P2 cameras that are currently on sale are very news oriented. There’s whole TV News stations going completely tapeless. P2 is perfect for them.
All I can say is that the same arguments against P2, that’s it’s too expensive, too little storage etc. were all levelled at Non Linear editing, and we all know what happened to that.
Graeme
– http://www.nattress.com – Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP
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[Blub] “What is the problem with the Panasonic 200 lens?”
Well have a look at Fujinon and Canon range of HD lenses and You might get some idea.I gues You have not used such lenses before..[Blub] “As I understand it Panasonic has other P2 cameras for sale right now, notice how little action there is on this forum…whither P2 indeed.”
Money,money..regards-jiri vrozina
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