Upgrading from DVX to HVX or Sony EX1

[Shane Ross]

[Keith Hill] “but this Cine Alta thing looks promising.”

Cine Alta? This isn’t the Cine Alta. OH MY NO. The Cina Alta is a very high end Sony camera…recording to HDCAM Tape or XDCAM discs. The model number on that is Sony HDW-F900. While this camera is also an XDCAM camera, it is NO Cine Alta.

DVCPRO HD has a 4:2:2 color space…and is a 100mbps format.
The XDCAM format has a 4:2:0 color space, and maxes out at 50mbps.

Color space is a big issue, even though many will deny it. Although one issue with the P2 vs EX is that the P2 cards are older PCMCIA technology, requiring a laptop with that input type (but an inexpensive adapter is available) or a pricy Panasonic P2 card reading option, like the P2 Store or 5 card reader. The EX records to PCIexpress cards, that the newer MacBook Pros can read without an adapter.

FCP directly interfaces with the Panasonic P2 format. Imports it, and works with it directly with the aid of Raylight. XDCAM requires a third party converter, provided by Sony. But, it is a slick application.

DVCPRO HD is an I-Frame format…meaning INDIVIDUAL frames. XDCAM is an MPEG Long-GOP format…meaning groups of pictures, no full frames. Well, one every half second or so., but the rest is a group of pictures.

I am a post guy…so I like the DVCPRO HD format the HVX offers. You can work with DVCPRO HD natively with no issues. While with XDCAM, even the Sony people say get it out of that format right away…capture or render as ProRes…an I-Frame format.

Shane

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[Keith Hill]

Thanks Shane.

They’ve put the Cine Alta logo on the camera. So, I thought maybe it lives up to the standard they’ve established with the brand. No, huh?

The color space thing is a concern for me as I anticipate doing screen work and a lot of compositing. I wonder if there are any modifications coming to the HVX. Like Panasonic did with the DVX100/A/B versions?

Keith Hill
Lighted Path Films | Productions
https://www.LightedPath.biz
Dallas, TX
G5 2Ghz, OS X Tiger (v10.4.10), Final Cut Studio2, Autodesk Combustion v4.0.5| Cinema4D, Mocha DVX100A 24p Camcorder

[Shane Ross]

Hmmm…I never noticed the CineAlta sticker. Well, I saw one of the first 3 cameras, and they didn’t have a sticker, so I didn’t notice.

How can they claim CineAlta? I guess the question is, what makes it a CineAlta?

[Keith Hill] “The color space thing is a concern for me as I anticipate doing screen work and a lot of compositing.”

Well, that makes DVCPRO HD a better choice, but still isn’t what compositors want. It is a highly compressed format, mainly in the blues, and that makes it challenging as well. Not impossible, just challenging.

[Keith Hill] “I wonder if there are any modifications coming to the HVX. Like Panasonic did with the DVX100/A/B versions?”

Well, you can capture directly from it to a hard drive thru a computer as uncompressed HD. Since you will be on a stage, that isn’t a bad option. But then you can do that with the EX too…and bypass ANY compression either camera records to the cards.

Shane

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GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD now for sale!
http://www.lfhd.net

[Mark Raudonis]

[Shane Ross] “How can they claim CineAlta? I guess the question is, what makes it a CineAlta? “

Is this a trick question? What makes it a “Cine Alta” is that Sony says it’s a “Cine Alta”.

Much the same as when Porsche came out with the 914 or even their “Cayenne” SUV. Purists were aghast, but people certainly bought ’em, drove ’em and were happy with ’em. I think you’ll find the same thing with this camera. The “ASC” crowd may not like it, but they’re not the one’s this camera was built for.

By the way, here’s Sony’s “official” explanation from their brouchure.

mark

The PMW-EX1 camcorder,a new member of Sony’s
legendary CineAlta family,offers the long-awaited native
23.98P* recording capability on its handy body. This feature,
accompanied with other creative features makes the
camcorder ideal for cinema production.
The PMW-EX1 camcorder offers a wide variety of gamma
curves to flexibly handle contrast,and give a specific ‘look’
to an image. In addition to four types of standard gamma
curves,the PMW-EX1 provides four types of CINE Gamma
(CINE 1,2,3,and 4),which are identical to those on …

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

Of anyone that knows me would say that I would naturally side on the HVX, I mean it is my baby. Frankly the 4:2:2 color space and I-Frame only recording in DVCPRO HD offers a benefit that makes editing in HD much like editing in DV.

If you really are considering the EX1 camera, I think you should take a closer look at the impact that the CMOS imager has on its pictures. It is very clear that it has a rolling shutter and that will impact your final images in a number of ways. One of the things I noticed was when I panned with the EX1 camera it seemed to have a shading issue until it came back to a full stop. This was not the only effect that the CMOS has on its image though.

The Sony camera does indeed have more resolution, but I think it isn’t always about what you start with, it is what you end with that counts. If looking at the full raster in the HQ mode, the pay load on the record side is still just 35Mbs. This quantifies into more compression to make it fit.

Also I would encourage you to look at the entire workflow as the two cameras are very different as far as the file based recording is concerned. On the HVX you can go from reviewing footage to recoding footage with the push of the record button, with the EX1, you have to wait for the camera to reboot in record mode, about 15 seconds. Also look at the meta data and what can be stored there as this will be how you go to find clips 3 years from now.

And as far as the P2 card vs the Express Card, well the P2 card is a very robust design that has been stepped on, sat on, washed, dropped in a river, a snow bank, and it just kept on working. The currently cost about the same, but the P2 card should last you through the 100,000 insertions.

I hope this helps,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Keith Hill]

Thank You Jan. I’m so confused :)!

Just kidding. There are things that I have always liked about the HVX. I am a DVX100A owner and figured that the HVX was the HD version of what I already have.

I tell you, From what I have discovered. Both camera would allow me to capture uncompressed HD-SDI in a studio setting where I would be doing screen work. Other than that, I’ve always wanted bigger sensors (thinking that it would be more resolution natively).

Jan you bring up some very interesting points to consider. Do you think there may be another version of the HVX coming out. Kind of like the way you guys handled the DVX100/A/B?

Thanks again. I hope I make the right choice for my work. I believe in tapeless HD future.

Keith Hill
Lighted Path Films | Productions
https://www.LightedPath.biz
Dallas, TX
G5 2Ghz, OS X Tiger (v10.4.10), Final Cut Studio2, Autodesk Combustion v4.0.5| Cinema4D, Mocha DVX100A 24p Camcorder

[Matt Gottshalk]

Even the Red Camera has the rolling shutter issue:

https://web.mac.com/fini1/iWeb/Site%20135/4k%20Red%20Camera.html

McGee Digital Media Inc.
24P HD Production and Post

[Craig Seeman]

Keith, look at the Cine Alta forum. I was faced with the same purchase decision and decided on the EX1 for many reasons but they may not be valid for you.

Rather than repeat here I’ll point to this post
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/142/856334

Both Cameras are good.

My own experience is the rolling shutter skewing is exaggerated by many. The EX1 is NOT a V1 and it takes an extreme circumstance to get it to happen.

The EX1 4:2:0 keys and composites fine but 4:2:2 has advantages. But those numbers don’t exist in isolation. In this case the 4:2:0 is attached to 1/2″ chips at 1920×1080 and that outweighs the 4:2:0 for me (but maybe not for you?).

Keep in mind the EX1 does have HD-SDI out at 4:2:2.

There’s also a lot to be said in handing a client a disc with the Sony clip browser or a Blu-ray disc with the file extension changed to .ts for easy client viewing.

I suspect Panasonic will respond with a comparable camera though. Competition and technology works that way.

Both cameras are good though. Different features, choices, advantages, disadvantages. There’s no “perfect” camera but you have a choice based on your (your client’s) needs.

[Keith Hill]

Thanks Craig. I agree. They are both great cameras. I will be testing the EX1 in the near future. So, I will soon see if I like it or not. After purchasing a DVX100A (which I plan to keep) I’m already a fan of Panasonic, and, I fully expect them to respond to any competition.

Keith Hill
Lighted Path Films | Productions
https://www.LightedPath.biz
Dallas, TX
G5 2Ghz, OS X Tiger (v10.4.10), Final Cut Studio2, Autodesk Combustion v4.0.5| Cinema4D, Mocha DVX100A 24p Camcorder

[Barry Green]

So does the Infinity. Every rolling-shutter CMOS camera has the “rolling shutter” issues. If you want to look at a rolling shutter camera, you’d better know what the rolling shutter does and how it affects your footage.