Upgrading from DVX to HVX or Sony EX1

[Keith Hill]

Yes. Barry, I’m aware of the very in-depth writing you did on the subject. This is definitely I will be getting my mind wrapped around.

[Radomir Carapic]

I don’t know too much about theory, but in practice, that camera Sony EX1 is making amazing job, everybody should see those amazing images by Philip Bloom, that is nothing to do with “rolling stuff” believe me,
Link:
https://web.mac.com/philip.bloom/Blooms_Blog/Blooms_Blog/Entries/2007/12/24_The_Brevis_Flip__and_the_Letus_rod_support.html

[Chris Vater]

If you are asking for opinions, my own would be that you really ought to go with the HVX200 unless storage is an issue (but if you’re editing with FCP then I think this issue can be solved by using the ProRes codec). The advantages to the HVX200 are the compatibility with the DVX100 you already own and the superior compression of DVCPro HD. Unless you have at least a year to really find out how this new Sony camera really handles, or unless that extra crispy super high-resolution look is what you really want for some reason, the safest bet for an upgrade is the HVX200. Maybe if there was a book comparable to Barry Green’s about how to get the most out of the EX1 I wouldn’t feel so strongly. I have purchased several of the HVX200’s and I really couldn’t be any happier with it. I am afraid this “CineAlta” EX from Sony deal is just their way of trying to cash in on the tape-less revolution. I don’t think they really made a camera that is better…the only one advantage I can see is that “true 1920X1080” resolution. To me, that’s just not enough to bet on; I love the real, rich, film-like quality of the images produced on the HVX200. I think that crisp glossy look that is produced by Sony’s new camera is overrated and if you really need that, you ought to be using a more expensive camera anyway. It’s going to be a long time before everything is shot AND distributed in HD. The issue of the P2 being based on the “old” PCMIA technology is silly. If you’re using the newest fastest computer without this type of slot, the adapter works really well, super fast when you are transferring to an external firewire hard drive, I have tried it with both the newest MacBookPro and the latest Dell Precision laptop. During this time of transition, the versatile HVX200 is the steady, reliable and PROVEN choice!

Hope that helps you in your decision, it’s just my opinion.

Chris Vater, Creative Director, High I.Q. Media

[Jeremy Cummings]

Ok, I believe some of you are seriously misled. The EX1 is the only camera to go with out of the options given. Panasonic’s HD camera’s sensor is just that above a SD sensor. That’s right! Their sensor is so crappy, it shouldn’t even be called HD. The only way they were getting away with selling their cams is off of the rep of the DVX and it’s color space.

I’ve seen direct comparisons of the Panasonic and the EX1 and it is so unbelievable that people actually used blown up downgraded HD images for so long. I’ve been shooting on FX1’s, V1U’s and Z1U’s and all of these cameras are horrible as well when stacked to the EX1.

First off, the image sensor is actually 3 1/2 inch true 1920 x 1080 p sensors. That kills everything in it’s class, even the Canons.

Everything else is 1/3 or 1/4 inch less than 1440×1080. The image is then up resd to 1440×1080. Panasonic has the lowest resolution out of all of them.

The bigger the lens, the better your image. Just look at why people want to convert to 35mm all the time. Smaller DOF.

Tape is going out anyway. I hate tape dumps. Even though you can do that on a Panasonic, you might as well saw off your leg and beat yourself up with it.

Truthfully, I’ve seen the high end cine altas in side by side comparisons with the ex1 and that thing can hold it’s own. My friend did a test with them and his red cam. That’s right after he showed me the side by sides of the ex1 and the Panasonic. I never knew what the difference was between true HD footage and the crap HDV and Panasonic puts out. Now every time I edit I don’t look at my footage the same way. I can totally see how fuzzy it is.

To wrap up, trust me, you do not want anything to do with Panasonic. They are the cheap bastards in this scenario and they just use cheap tricks to get you to buy their gear. The ex1 was created to compete with the red cam sales and in my opinion, they are doing a great job.

The only next contender would be canon. If they cam out with a similar camera, that can use their Dig SLR lenses, then it would be a no brainer.

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[Jeremy Cummings] “Ok, I believe some of you are seriously misled. The EX1 is the only camera to go with out of the options given. Panasonic’s HD camera’s sensor is just that above a SD sensor. That’s right! Their sensor is so crappy, it shouldn’t even be called HD. The only way they were getting away with selling their cams is off of the rep of the DVX and it’s color space. .”

Excuse me but you are just so outstandingly wrong in your assessment of the HVX. You are going strictly with the exact pixel count and discounting the effect of the spatial offset. Including the spatial offset, the pixel count moves to about 1.1 million pixels. The rep that the HVX has earned has been because of the pictures it makes and frankly the tone of your post makes you sound a little like a Sony troll.

[Jeremy Cummings] “I’ve seen direct comparisons of the Panasonic and the EX1 and it is so unbelievable that people actually used blown up downgraded HD images for so long. I’ve been shooting on FX1’s, V1U’s and Z1U’s and all of these cameras are horrible as well when stacked to the EX1. .”

So have a good number of people on the list and it really depends on the subject matter. If you are recording still images, I would say yes the Sony is sharper but in this business images have a nasty habit, they move, and the more motion and the more detail in the picture, the more the XDCAM codec has to surrender some of that resolution. It is not what you make it is what you keep! The difference between an I-frame codec and a long GOP codec is huge when it comes to the sacrifices that the codec makes. In an Intra-frame codec the sacrifice is limited to the individual frames, thus making it frame independent resolution. With Long GOP codecs it will affect the entire GOP.

[Jeremy Cummings] “First off, the image sensor is actually 3 1/2 inch true 1920 x 1080 p sensors. That kills everything in it’s class, even the Canons. .”

Keep in mind it still has the same payload as the bigger brother the 355, which prefilters(for a reason)to 1440 X 1080. The EX has almost 40% more data to get into that same payload, this means more compression and more compression artifacts.

[Jeremy Cummings] “Everything else is 1/3 or 1/4 inch less than 1440×1080. The image is then up resd to 1440×1080. Panasonic has the lowest resolution out of all of them. .”

It is not just about resolution my friend. It is about the pictures that it makes. If you look at the monitor and you like it, resolution doesn’t matter. In fact more resolution can make it look very cold and artificial. But camera decsions should be made not by comparing resolution charts but rather by looking at what you want to record with them. Then compare the recordings.

[Jeremy Cummings] “To wrap up, trust me, you do not want anything to do with Panasonic. They are the cheap bastards in this scenario and they just use cheap tricks to get you to buy their gear. The ex1 was created to compete with the red cam sales and in my opinion, they are doing a great job. .”

And I take real exception to this language. This is why I think you must be a Sony Troll. The Sony camera couldn’t touch the Red if its life depended on it. The DVCPRO HD codec that drives the HVX200 was designed for the high end of the production industry and up until the time of the introduction of the HVX the only camera that had it was the Varicam at +$60,000. The “cheap tricks” you mention is that we took that professional codec and put it into a $6000 camera. We could do that because we had designed P2 to be able to record any data rate we needed.

There are a number of things that, over all, make the P2 HD solution a more robust and future oriented decision. The first starts with the implementation of just how the camera works. It can do the single steps of recording, as can the Sony, but the Sony cannot do loop record nor pre-record. Nor can it go from playback of clips (multiple clips) to record in under 2 seconds. It has to be turned off before it can reboot to record (14 seconds.) And Metadat, well don’t even get me started there.

There are lots of differences between the two cameras and I steadfastly believe that for the price differential premium that you will pay for the Sony camera it will not be worth it in the long run. Heck their second gen of solid state cameras aren’t even the SxS cards but rather CF. Okay, so is SxS just a one trick pony media. In contrast to P2 we have 2 SD cameras, and 4 HD cameras, and 4 other devices that you can use for playback or transfer. We have standardized on a PCMCIA Card Bus II device that is tried and true and made it virtually indestructible (although I suppose if you wanted to you could.) What we have established is a path, a system with a codec that is absolutely compatible with its brethren on a tape based format. This is called engineering with the customer in mind, how do we help the customer take their previous investments and help them capitalize on them.

Your take is so off the wall here. I suggest that if you are going to post again that you post with real facts instead of emotional and inflammatory remarks. You have posted twice on this forum, and I don’t see why you have bothered with this one.

Best regards,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Jeremy Cummings]

Well, I’m not a Sony troll, but I’m glad you have a good imagination, since that’s what it takes to make it seem like your camera can shoot a better image than a native 1920 x 1080 chip. (Couldn’t resist)

Sorry, you are right, I did come off flailing away. I figured all of the stats are here in the forums.

1/2 inch vs 1/3 inch
1920×1080 (Rolling Shutter) vs 960×540 (offset)
35 mbps vs 100 mbps
whatever…

Your standpoint is really based on color-space, work-flow, lack of rolling shutter, larger throughput in codec and reliability.

I know I love the way the Panasonic deals with color. I like the lens it comes with. The media cards are pretty much the same in price, even though they are both extremely overpriced.

I think I was really upset when I did look in the monitor and saw the two in comparison; that the Sony obliterated the image of the HVX. Truthfully, I’m not a Sony troll, if anything I’m a Red Cam troll. I really hate all the camera manufactures besides Red, since Red really tries to give the consumer what they want, for a decent price. Everyone can compete to make a better camera. I can get an 8GB flash memory card for under $100.

But that is really off topic, I was just wondering why people were still talking about these cameras. The Panasonic is just an old camera that will die out soon, when other companies realize they need to make what the consumer is really asking for. (8k rez of course)

The Sony codec is newer, it really can handle it’s bandwidth, it doesn’t need 100mbps to get a better image, yes there is slight banding and some artifacts here and there, but every camera has flaws. I’m still trying to figure out why you think a crappy image through an old codec will make a better image.

True your offset pixel method can help uprezing a 960×540 image to a near perfect 720p image, but c’mon, 1140 x 1080. Zoom in, you’ll find it is just a blurry mess. When I do another green screen, I’m going to have to trust longer GOP’s over a “Super SD” image.

Yes your camera was king of the compact cheaper cameras. If I wanted to shoot a movie, I’d get a 35mm adapter, some nice 35mm lens and your HVX, but that has all changed (and will always be changing). For the Sony, when you convert to a 35mm adapter, the better low light kicks in on the EX1 and your images get the proper color-space your looking for and great look of the lens, instead of that cold blown out look that Sony’s are known for.

https://www.philipbloom.co.uk/Philip_Bloom/Letus_35mm.html

So, to be clear, all I’m saying is that, for my purposes, being able to shoot commercial video one day, shoot some green screen the next, then turn around and want to shoot a movie, I just can’t trust the Panasonic anymore.

Sorry, yes, I’m merely just going off the way the image looks and the resolution it is capable of. If you want to come out with a new camera, please do, but in the mean time, I’m gonna have to say the EX1’s image is a startling improvement over the HVX, due to the quality of the resolution, no matter what you think of the codec.

And of course I don’t think the EX1 can top the Red, I just said it has a pretty good image in comparison. I do appreciate the banter though and I’m glad to see that you stand beside your product.

(If anything buy the Scarlet, from Red, when it comes out.)

[Kevin Stanley]

This is a great thread. I used to work for Red and think the Scarlet will be a great addition to this comparison, although don’t be fooled by the 3K price tag, you will need a few 300x CF cards and they are $200 a piece for 8GB, which should give you about 8 minutes (Speculative) of record time. Add some Red accessories and a flash drive and you are easily into the sony/pana price range. Rolling shutter will be a factor here, you don’t want to shoot muzzle flashes or fireworks with the Red One or half the screen will be black. I think the Scarlet will win here because of resolution and RAW image acquisition, which I really appreciate.. it is truly amazing in terms of flexibility. I can’t wait to see what happens in mid 09′ when the thing finally hits the streets.

My post is totally off topic I know, so my question in regards to this post is… do you need a kona card or some other 3rd party capture product to get the 4:2:2 subsampling out of the Sony since it only comes from HD-SDI? It would be much cooler IMO if you could sacrifice record time to get 4:2:2 for key work on the native SxS.

In comparison to the HVX the larger sensor and native 1080 means lots to me as it gives you more room for post tricks and HD is definitely being distributed and pushing SD out the door quickly. The HVX is going to get phased out by true 1080p + full digital cams but I don’t think the EX1 is the camera that will send it to pasture. Scarlet could be a different story, hopefully other manufactures will follow RED’s lead, it’s about time pro gear became accessible by indies.

[Chris Vater]

Hello,

I have been converted. When it comes to a choice between the Panny HVX200(a and/or hpx170) or the Sony EX1, the Sony is a better choice, moreso if you can also afford the Convergent Design Flash XDR or the upcoming nanoFlash. At this point, though, my opinion is that it would be better to wait until the RED company comes out with their Scarlet models. And if you can’t wait, but you want really beautiful true 1920X1080 HD video, spend 1/2 or less of what the EX1 and SxS cards cost and get the new Canon 50D Mark II. The EX1 is a big step above the HVX200 but the flaws prevent me from recommending them wholeheartedly. THEY ARE NOT WORTH IT>…wait for what’s coming soon, VERY SOON!

Chris Vater, Creative Director, High I.Q. Media

[Shane Ross]

Hmm…

EX1 is 4:2:0 Colorspace…HVX-200 is 4:2:2
EX1 records in the GOP format, guessing at frames…HVX-200 shoots full frame rates…no guessing.
EX1 has CMOS sensor, and therefor rolling shutter…HVX-200 has 3CCDs, no rolling shutter.

The only drawback I see to the HVX-200 is the cost of the cards. But that outweighs the other issues by a lot. Especially when the Firestore exists for cheap storage and long record times.

Shane

GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Craig Seeman]

[Shane Ross] “EX1 is 4:2:0 Colorspace…HVX-200 is 4:2:2 “
But given how tightly packed it is, it chroma keys well especially if you shot progressive
EX1 is 10 bit Uncompressed 4:2:2 out of HD-SDI which Chris alluded to.

[Shane Ross] “EX1 records in the GOP format, guessing at frames…HVX-200 shoots full frame rates…no guessing.”
Only a problem if it guesses wrong. 35mbit VBR is very very very hard to break. Certainly folks who are shooting sports and ENG with it can attest to that.

[Shane Ross] “EX1 has CMOS sensor, and therefor rolling shutter…HVX-200 has 3CCDs, no rolling shutter.”
It’s the ONLY way currently to get 1/2″ chips in a small body. CCDs generate way too much heat. Having control of depth of field in a small portable camera is GREAT.

[Shane Ross] “The only drawback I see to the HVX-200 is the cost of the cards.”

I can offload an SxS card at up to 8 times real time. Time is a cost in my book especially on deadline.
I can use TWO 32GB SDHC cards and get nearly 4 hours record time and leave the laptop (or stack of cards) at home. I don’t have to deal with hanging things off the camera . . . unless I want 10 bit 4:2:2 Uncompressed.