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trying to collect on a prooject
Hello All,
I have a nice one for you. I am sure this will spark all sorts of comments about what went wrong with this project from day one. And please feel free to pick this entire situation apart as it will serve as an excellent example of what not to do. However, I would like some advice on how to get out of this mess now that I am here.I was hired to produce a series of commercials for a family of car dealerships with three separate locations. The project called for three donuts (one for each of the locations) with the ability to change out the middle on a regular bases. The projects called for a lot of graphics and after effects work so the initial work to build the spots was not cheap. We also did a lot of extra taping on the lots so we would have the footage we need to update the spots.
The original deal was struck with the General Manager whom is a friend of a friend (I am sure you are all cringing at that). He agreed to my hourly and daily rates and we agreed that I would submit an invoice to him first when I received approval for the donuts and then each time we updated them. I also gave him a time estimate so he knew how much money we were talking about. At this point, there was nothing in writing.
When all three donuts were complete he gave a verbal OK and I submitted the first invoice for $4425.00. At this time he specified what he wanted to complete the middle section of two of the spots. I completed these, received the OK and submitted the second invoice for $575.00. This included billing for all three spots just to keep the accounting simple. He was leaving on vacation and decided to leave the final spot until he returned. At this point the first two spots were sent off to the local cable company and started airing.
When he returned he had a falling out with the owner and quit his job. When I next spoke with him he assured me that he had submitted the invoices for payment before he left for vacation. I was then left to deal with the new GM.
After about a month of trying to get paid, trying to get some indication of what they wanted for the third spot and trying to get a meeting with the new GM, he finally informs me that the owner wanted to change one scene in the commercials. It was shot at the old GM
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27 Replies
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Just send them a final ten day collection notice with a threat of legal action and then take these guys to small claims court if they don’t pay. You have done everything asked of you and more, and they have deep pockets. There’s just no excuse for treating you badly. They will either pay you now or pay you after the judge rules in your favor.
BTW, your story reminded me of an encounter I once had with a fellow who also happened to be the general manager of a car dealership. He was so intent on proving that he knew how to wheel and deal and manipulate people that he threatened a legal suit against both me and the company I was working for at the time if we refused to accept his offer of 25-cents on the dollar for some retail video equipment he wanted to purchase.
It may sound like a generalization, but in many cases it really seems like some car dealers have been watching way too many movies about unscrupulous car dealers, and it seems they admire the characters and aspire to be just like them.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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Gosh, I’ll bet you know most of the answers you’ll get anyway with 20/20 hindsight.
You should have had a contract although even that doesn’t guarantee payment.
ALWAYS get money up front whether it be 1/3 or 1/2 or some other formula.Sometimes when I do hourly I don’t have a contract but that means I get paid at the end of the day. You shoot you get paid. You do edit or graphics work you get paid that day. You can give them window dubs (I charge for that too) as proof of work done but you get paid every step of the way doing that.
Just because they say they’ll pay you 2/3s doesn’t mean you’ll get that either. They can string you along for months.
Even winning in small claims court doesn’t guarantee and if you have no paper trail they may well claim it was your friend of friend who made the promises, not them.
In addition, I’d do the donuts and spots as two separate jobs. Spots don’t happen until donuts are paid for.
As a business my PRIME DIRECTIVE is to keep the business IN BUSINESS.
I’d very politely sit down with them and say that you must get paid in FULL for the donuts before doing anything else with the spots. If they want to discuss the number of spots that’s a separate deal. I simply would not risk continuing to get nothing. If the 2/3s is a tolerable compromise for you then you should get THAT immediately before proceeding with any work.
In short I’d do NO FURTHER WORK unless some satisfactory amount of money hit my bank account.
NEVER allow yourself to be put in this situation again. Again I’ve done hourly without a contract but that means I get paid at the end of the day. With contract I always REQUIRE money up front.
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Thank you for your feed back.
I of course have not done any additional work. and I did bill the donuts as a separate job. That is the invoice I feel they need to pay in full.. the other invoice for finishing the spots I would be willing to cut. Though the work is now complete, they are only airing the first two spots.
I typically bill as you suggest. A deposit, then I get paid when I shot, I get paid when I edit, and I leave a little behind that I then get paid on final approval before I ship tapes.
The problem with this was I wanted to make things easy on what I thought would be a big account with ongoing projects.
As I read in another one of these posts, 30 day terms should be awarded to clients after they establish a solid relationship, not as a means to get clients.
I have learned a lot from reading these posts, and I that others that are trying to build a business can learn from this one.
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Thank you David for you post. I have often appreciated your comments while reading other threads and it’s nice to know your position on this.
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Thank you. I seldom suggest suing, but when a big company plays unfair hardball with a small business owner, it really ticks me off. And, this is just the kind of stuff that really ticks-off judges too… They just love teaching them lessons over this kind of stuff.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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It certainly pisses me off too. Like I said from a business stand point, maybe I should take the two thirds and run, but I don’t want to let these guys get away with anything.
What really pisses me off, is they wanted changes made after the fact, they still haven’t paid but they are still airing the commercials.
Just a warning and I wish I had a nickel for every time I read it here, don’t deliver until you get paid!!
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In my 12 things I learned article for the COW Magazine I wrote:
“…even though I don
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The paperwork in small claims court takes about an hour of your time and the court day may eat up two or three hours of your time, but you gotta figure it eats into the time of the other guys too. Any smart businessman will just pay off. They know right from wrong, but they’re just trying to get something for nothing.
Go get ’em and don’t accept anything except 100%. In fact, you should consider sending them a cease and desist order warning them to stop airing the commercials, and notify them that you are filing a claim in court on “x-date” and you are seeking both late fees and damages in addition to the full payment.
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor
David Weiss Productions, Inc.
Los AngelesPOST-PRODUCTION WITHOUT THE USUAL INSANITY™
A forum host of Creative COW’s Business & Marketing, and Indie Film & Documentary forums.
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[dvproducer] “What really pisses me off, is they wanted changes made after the fact, they still haven’t paid but they are still airing the commercials. “
Airing the Commercials!!! How about suing for copyright infringement. There’s been NO transfer of rights. Why the heck would any hand over finished material before payment?!
Even if you didn’t collect a penny during the whole process you could have given them Window burn in or Watermarked dubs for “approval” and they’d either pay up or get nothing.
I am not a lawyer and you may certainly need one but I can’t imagine how they can claim they own the copyright on anything when technically it isn’t even a work for hire since they’ve yet to have consummated even a nominal transaction. Handing someone video does not give them the right to use the content.
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Dear Mr. Griffin,
I don’t believe I read the article, but I did enjoy your contributions to one of the cows round table pod casts.
Your comments on don’t do business with people you don’t trust really did strike a cord with me as this deal was just starting to go sour when I heard the pod cast.
I entered this deal with someone I did trust. Though I had never meet him before, the original GM that I dealt with seemed very honest and trust worthy and I have no issue with him. It all changed with the new GM. I don’t think it was just the new GM that made this go bad but also the circumstances at the time.
As I have been building my business over the past year, these forums have proven to be an invaluable resource. I hope to be able to help other people that are going through similar situations.
So to further the discussion, I agree that them not calling me again would be an upside. I don’t think I would do business with them even if they were willing to pay me upfront.
From a strict stand point I agree, money in the bank is a good thing. But this has become something more than just the money. If I don’t hold them accountable, then who will. I know they want to do more commercials. What about the poor sap that comes in next?? When people get away with this type of stuff, they just keep trying to pull it. If the prevailing business models become cut your loses and run, then everyone would try this type of thing.
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