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Forums Sony Cameras Thoughts on upcoming 4/3 inch cameras

  • Thoughts on upcoming 4/3 inch cameras

     Don Greening updated 9 years, 9 months ago 10 Members · 21 Posts
  • Michael Moser

    December 5, 2010 at 9:20 pm

    I’m looking over the specs of the Sony F3 and the Panasonic 100 and I conclude that it’s an interesting world we live in.
    I got my hands on the Panasonic and am duly impressed…In our world the DVX and up crowd is pretty large, but I’ve never been one to always go with the flow…I’m more impressed with the expansion capabilities offered by the Sony F3…with KiPros and Cinedeks as outboard recording possibilities.

    In fact, if you compare the two, even though the body of the Panasonic is cheaper, when you add it all up with ad-ons, for stability, lenses, and functionality, they are close to equal (though Pana is probably a little cheaper (and offers 1080p overcrank).

    I’m curious if others are making these calculations and what conclusions you are coming to?

  • Craig Seeman

    December 5, 2010 at 9:36 pm

    Add Sony’s NXCAM with Super35 sensor coming next summer.
    None of these are run & gun cameras though.

    It really depends on what you need as I think the AF100 and F3 are really for different markets. There are LOTS of difference between these two cameras. I don’t think it’s and either/or choice between these two.

    Again the Sony NXCAM will be interesting and more competitive to the AF100.

    Right now my personal sentiment is to get something like a Canon EOS 60D and work around the issues and wait until the products shake out a bit at least until Sony’s NXCAM. In any case, the lenses you get now should work as you move up the camera purchase change.

    What’s bothering me is that it seems AVCHD will be the lower end recording standard short of adding an KiProMini or NanoFlash or whatever else comes out. I just don’t like the idea that I keep having to nail things to a body. I really wish someone would use XDCAM HD 50mbps 4:2:2 built in.

    Personally I think I’m going to like Sony’s NXCAM Super35 over Panny’s AF100 4/3 sensor and I’d rather wait and see. I don’t like that either is AVCHD. The F3 Super35 will have important features for those who need LUT and Dual Link. The XDCAM EX 35mbps really doesn’t have much more value than as a proxy file in that league.

  • Rafael Amador

    December 5, 2010 at 10:01 pm

    I wouldn’t like to be in the need to buy a camera right now.
    Time to wait, if you can.

    [Craig Seeman] “What’s bothering me is that it seems AVCHD will be the lower end recording standard short of adding an KiProMini or NanoFlash or whatever else comes out. I just don’t like the idea that I keep having to nail things to a body. I really wish someone would use XDCAM HD 50mbps 4:2:2 built in.”
    Even this last option is short for those cameras.
    Another thing to think about is that if those new cameras output 8 or 10b on the SDI/HDMI.
    Avoid HDMI would be great too.
    rafael

    http://www.nagavideo.com

  • Michael Moser

    December 5, 2010 at 10:03 pm

    I agree..There’s a lot more to see post NAB next year…I think since Sony’s already has the 50mps/4:2:2 in an existing body, that’ll be the way she goes. I think Sony is less likely to cannibalize it’s line than Pana sonic. I think the AVCHD codec will remain competitive with the NXCAM and the sxs will be the upgrade path beyond the F3.
    I’d like to get on the large sensor bandwagon, though I really don’t like to be building an erector set around my camera to put it on my shoulder.
    -m

  • Noah Kadner

    December 5, 2010 at 10:36 pm

    I’d be investing in a high end set of lenses. Something like the Zeiss compact primes. Then you can roll with whatever the body camera du jour happens to be. Glass is pretty much good forever. Well until the day where a 35mm sized sensor is no longer considered the standard. Then we’re all basically hosed…

    Noah

    Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.

  • Craig Seeman

    December 5, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    [Michael Moser] “I agree..There’s a lot more to see post NAB next year…I think since Sony’s already has the 50mps/4:2:2 in an existing body, that’ll be the way she goes.”

    Sony is using 35mbps 4:2:0 in the F3 so that’d definitely not the case. The announced NXCAM Super35 is AVCHD 24mbps, I believe.

    [Michael Moser] “I’d like to get on the large sensor bandwagon, though I really don’t like to be building an erector set around my camera to put it on my shoulder.”

    I agree.

    [Michael Moser] “I think Sony is less likely to cannibalize it’s line than Panasonic.”

    Please explain where the cannibalization might happen. Certainly people who need shallow depth of field are going to chose NXCAM when the time comes, over EX1r and EX3. Those who need shoulder mount run and gun will be looking at PMW-320 and 350 on up for ENG work. I see no reason why Sony could have an EX 35mbps in the same suspected price range as their announced NXCAM. Personally I feel it’s a mistake to use that codec in the F3 rather than 50mbps 4:2:2 for people who need fast turnaround, small files, color for compositing.

  • Craig Seeman

    December 5, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    [Noah Kadner] “I’d be investing in a high end set of lenses. Something like the Zeiss compact primes. Then you can roll with whatever the body camera du jour happens to be. Glass is pretty much good forever”

    Well said. That’s why one might consider a Canon EOS 60D and spend money on lenses while the first generation of lower end large sensor cameras shakes itself out. Of course one might have an immediate need and an AF100 or whatever Sony does with NXCAM might be a reasonable price for a 1 year ROI.

    I have problems with all the announced large sensor cameras so I’d be a bit reluctant to spend that money on the those bodies.

  • Noah Kadner

    December 5, 2010 at 11:19 pm

    Yeah personally I think cannibalization of differing product lines, or at least corporate perception of it, is really one of the key issues of this current crop of cameras. It used to be 5 or 10 years ago, the DV/HDV cameras you got at the prosumer end were really the state of the art at that price point. These days however it’s hard not to see how putting a specific codec into a specific camera at a specific price point isn’t a more artificial way to separate out certain market segments than it is a reality of costs/capabilities. I mean is it really that unrealistic to expect say ProRes native capture to CF cards on a sub $10,000 camera without outboard gear?

    Noah

    Unlock the secrets of 24p, HD and Final Cut Studio with Call Box Training. Featuring the Canon 5D Mark II and 7D.

  • Michael Moser

    December 6, 2010 at 2:47 am

    [Craig Seeman]Sony is using 35mbps 4:2:0 in the F3 so that’d definitely not the case. The announced NXCAM Super35 is AVCHD 24mbps, I believe.

    I was just speculating that Sony might offer that in an upgraded model since they’ve shown it could be done in the 500…
    I think Noah is saying that this is the way they define each line, that is by codec, and that’s an artificial differentiator.
    In any case, I agree that like a good set of lights, lenses are valuable as a long term investment.
    BTW as far as lights go, I wouldn’t put a whole lot of money into HMI’s at this point…
    Anyway, a good camera is one that makes you money and allows you to do your job in an efficient, flexible, and artful manner…
    My Sony Z-1 is still working along with my betacam thanks to the KiPro.

    I’m excited by the new possibilities offered by whatever large sensor cameras emerge. Maybe the F-3 is too in-the-middle…The Panasonic offers mainly the same thing at a lower price-point…
    other than that the Sony will offer dual link and the ability to match cameras for 3D..You’ll still need a 4:4:4 on board recorder…I’d rather have a camera that records sound and has the other video functionalities…

  • Craig Seeman

    December 6, 2010 at 5:24 am

    [Michael Moser] “I was just speculating that Sony might offer that in an upgraded model since they’ve shown it could be done in the 500…”

    I’m surprised they didn’t got the 50mbps 4:2:2 route but they’ve made their announcement and I doubt they’ll change that.

    [Michael Moser] ” Maybe the F-3 is too in-the-middle”

    That’s my feeling. It seems very specifically a B camera to an F35 and the like.

    [Michael Moser] “Sony will offer dual link and the ability to match cameras for 3D..You’ll still need a 4:4:4 on board recorder”

    Once you add Dual Link it ain’t all that mobile so primarily its price compared to an F35 rental makes it viable in that narrow niche. Going with 35mbps 4:2:0 significantly decrease a big advantage it could have had over the AF100. Granted XDCAM EX is easier to handle than AVCHD but not at that price difference between those two cameras. With 50mbps 4:2:2 it would at least be a small portable, broadcast codec spec camera.

    [Michael Moser] “a good camera is one that makes you money and allows you to do your job in an efficient, flexible, and artful manner…
    My Sony Z-1 is still working along with my betacam thanks to the KiPro. “

    This is why the AF100 or Sony’s NXCAM will make more sense than the F3 for most people. It’s just a gut feeling but the F3 at 3 times the price will not sell 1/3 as many cameras. Just my humble opinion. The F3 is really “in the middle” with appeal to a very narrow niche.

    BTW I should state that I’m not quite happy with any of the cameras yet. AF100 is 4/3 and AVCHD. I’d prefer APS-C or Super35 and a better codec I can work with more easily. The NXCAM will Super35 which is great but AVCHD. Both can be “fixed” with a KiProMini or equivalent though. The F3 just doesn’t make sense at price and feature list. LUT and Dual Link can be critical for broadcast or Film but then you’re also looking at RED at that point.

    I can’t help that the next generation following this will be 50mbps 4:2:2 built in whether Sony or Canon or Panasonic comes out with AF100a (ghosts of DVX100 history) with some improvements. Heck I’d even settle for APS-C and 35mbps 4:2:0 if it were competitive with the AF100 but Sony apparently isn’t going to go there. BIG MISTAKE IMHO.

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