The Red Nightmare

[Joe Hedge]

“Using this method, I’ve created small edit version of RED files using REDRushes, then reconnected them to the Native QT wrapped R3D file that you import using Log and Transfer.”

Let me ask, a) if you’re getting full framerate playback w/o stuttering in the timeline, and b) if the answer is yes, if this is because you’re coming off of a RAID 5 set-up with a Kona card that handles the processor-intensive playback of proxies. I think a lot of people (myself included) read posts like this, about editing with proxies, and don’t realize the souped-up hardware being used.

Also what exactly is the advantage of using the Native-wrapped R3D workflow when you can just import the camera proxies? Do the natives playback better than the camera proxies?

[Gary Adcock]

[joe hedge] ” If you did not do so already and I am just too thick to understand, could you tell me if there is any benefit in CC’ing 12 bit R3D proxies when you are finishing in 10 bit (or less) video, and you can’t see 12 bit on practically any monitor anyway?”

I did not.

again some misconceptions- only the R3D file is 12bit – QT proxies are 8bit.

it is called quantization <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantization_(image_processing)>

think Photoshop – the better / bigger the image you start with the better the final delivery take a marginal photo at 8×10 will be a great image at 4×5/

In video staying in the greater bit depth allow for better image handling and the more adjustment.

Think about it the same as 4k you take those 4000px images and make it 2000px many things that might have been seen at full rez are gone when the image is 1/2 the size.

it works the same with color and luminance in video the more you have to start with the better it look at when you finish.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php

[Gary Adcock]

[joe hedge] “I think a lot of people (myself included) read posts like this, about editing with proxies, and don’t realize the souped-up hardware being used. “

What part of 4K does not tell you souped up hardware?
Hell what part of 2K does not say ” I need more”

“Also what exactly is the advantage of using the Native-wrapped R3D workflow when you can just import the camera proxies? Do the natives playback better than the camera proxies?”

joe
this is not DV- this is about the largest format that can be shot short of IMAX / 70mm.

Native files need the fastest CPU with the most RAM you can stuff in it.
The Proxies are used so that you can handle the files on lesser machines – then conform to the high rez later, which is the standard process for working in the film world.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php

[Joe Hedge]

Gary thank you for the response, if I might crave your further indulgence…

In the workflow described below…

https://www.indie4k.com/archives/110

…you are told to conform your sequence to the _H proxies for grading in Color. You are saying the proxies are 8 bit. Why am I going to the trouble of sending 8 bit proxies to Color when the intent is to grade the 12 bit R3D’s?

[Chi-ho Lee]

[Russell Lasson] “One thing I don’t like about Log and Transfer is that it only scales by a factor of 2. So depending on if you shot 4K 16:9 or 4K HD, you’ll end up with files that are either 2048 pixels wide or 1920 pixels wide. “

Russell,

The L&T window gives me a 2048 x 1024 frame – so in your opinion, what’s the problem with this 2048 x 1024 image?

CHL

Chi-Ho Lee
Film & Television Editor
Apple Certified Final Cut Pro Trainer
http://www.chiholee.com

[Joe Hedge]

“What part of 4K does not tell you souped up hardware?
Hell what part of 2K does not say ” I need more” ”

Yes I get it. I was at the RedUser thing at the Rio, and the Aja guy with the Prince Valiant haircut was showing off how he could playback the proxies at full framerate, no stuttering. Then I peeked behind the curtain and saw the 12 drive RAID array, and listened to his spiel about how the Kona card allowed what I was seeing to happen. My point is, your average reader reads these posts from guys about cutting with proxies who never mention their Kona cards and RAID 5’s. Then your average reader starts trying to cut proxies on their MacBook Pro and goes ok, WTF are these guys talking about. Not me of course..yeah right.

[Gary Adcock]

[Chi-Ho Lee] “The L&T window gives me a 2048 x 1024 frame – so in your opinion, what’s the problem with this 2048 x 1024 image? “

having the default transcode as less than 1080 for the vertical was lame on Apples part.

in all honesty Chi-Ho I hate having “black bars” on my expensive display that were designed for wide screen viewing.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php

[Russell Lasson]

Many projects I work on finish to 1920×1080. That’s why I don’t like 2048×1024. First off, you have to scale the image to get it back to 1080. Why take an image that was captured at 2048 vertical pixels (at 4K 2:1) and bring it in at half that resolution (1024) just to then scale it back to 1080? It’s just messy.

If you finishing to 1920×1080, just shoot 4K HD so FCP will make a nice 1920×1080 image out of the R3D file. That sounds better to me:)

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT

[Russell Lasson]

[joe hedge] “Let me ask, a) if you’re getting full framerate playback w/o stuttering in the timeline, “

I guess you missed the part were I said I didn’t like editing with proxies, so I convert them to small offline files (like ProRes 720P) for editing. So of course I’m getting full frame/full quality playback. I can do that on an internal laptop drive if I want.

Then when you’re done with your edit, bring in the final files that you’re using as “native” through Log and Transfer. Now reconnect your sequence to the “native” files and then send to Color.

Or just send me your edl and your RED files and I’ll finish it on Scratch for you:)

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Colorist/Digital Cinema Specialist
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT

[Gary Adcock]

[joe hedge] “Then your average reader starts trying to cut proxies on their MacBook Pro and goes ok, WTF are these guys talking about. Not me of course..yeah right. “

Those same people would also piss and moan about not being able to play video from the system drive also.

Look I am not saying there is not a learning curve, and if you want to see one frack’d up workflow read this thread https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/242/2344#2344 ( this issue was spread across 3 forums and about 4 different topics so there is more)

Everything is laid out- it gets to the very end and the editor finds out that all of the time and hassle spent trying to figure out this problem, and it all gets down to the hardware being used was not capable to handle the frame rate chosen.

if you are going to be a pro at this, at the high end hardware will define how far you go. There is a point where it takes real hard cash to do the best, and it takes cash to be able to “Properly” handle 4:4:4, as 2K as DPX, or as 10bit UC HD content. Don’t get me wrong, having the best tools available does not make me better at editing, post, production or shooting.

Having the proper gear does make my life easier and for that reason I am more productive.

This is a business, it gets down to the basic facts

Do I need to work in 12bit all the time – no.
Do I need to work in 10bit all the time – no , yet why not take advantage of the quality difference if we are talking about handling the original as 10 bit low-bandwidth ProRes.

If you think that you need to use 12bit all the time that is fine- it is your choice, but understand if you go that way there are issues, lots of them, on the flip side- the right hardware solves lots of issues.

If you don’t have the hardware, you made the wrong choice that time, just like the proxies for editing; don’t use a larger version than you can handle ie: 1K Red Proxies at most on a laptop.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
https://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
https://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php