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The Color Wheels Mystery …
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Simon you’re being way too PC on this one but I understand as a developer you sometimes have to walk the line. I saw the video before you pulled it and it wasn’t overly critical of Apple or anyone who likes the current paradigm. It was in fact a very logical and acceptable question presented to the community that deserves an addressing. It was also very informative. I wish you’d repost. It really clarifies the situation.
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[Simon Ubsdell] “Disclaimer: Although I am very proud to have collaborated on Hawaiki Color and very grateful to the discriminating users who have sought it out over the years, I no longer have any commercial involvement with the product.”
Fair and above board.
My point remains, better for X users overall, that it’s a bug that’s fixed in an update. We will know soon enough.
It’s good information though, and it was a good video.
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[Bret Williams] “I wish you’d repost. It really clarifies the situation.”
I’ve made it Public again, should anyone care to take a look. But I’ve made sure to disable comments to avoid the spread of FUD and misinformation which is really unhelpful here.
Incidentally Oliver P. has just suggested to me a very intriguing and plausible explanation for what’s happening here, but I won’t steal his thunder.
In fact, I’d never have noticed what was happening here at all if it weren’t for his initial prompting.
Clever fellow.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Tony West] “that it’s a bug that’s fixed in an update”
You realize of course, that that would change any and every instance of the filter that you have used by then after updating? Which is why I can’t see that it’s a bug nor that it would or could be “fixed”. At least not in that way, should it in fact even need fixing.
That would literally require an additional filter, so as not to muck everything up. Unless there are other options to avoid that which I’m not aware of, which is obviously entirely possible. Seeing that I’m not a programmer. A “Do you want to update your color filters?” prompt if you open the old with the new? No idea. But again, it seems no one can argue 100% that it’s in fact a bug or not, so ultimately pretty moot conversation, no?
But then different is not inherently wrong. I’d have thought FCP users of all people would have understood that by now. ????
– RK
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[Simon Ubsdell] “Incidentally Oliver P. has just suggested to me a very intriguing and plausible explanation for what’s happening here, but I won’t steal his thunder.”
Thanks. But so far, you’ve been doing the work ☺ In any case, we’ve both taken the approach that there must be some logical reason why it is so.
The general (potential) conclusion – which definitely bears further testing – is that the color board seems to work correctly for Rec 709, but not Rec 2020 (HDR). Conversely, the wheels (midtones primarily) seem right for Rec 2020, but not Rec 709.
That’s a pretty preliminary opinion, right now. But if that’s the case, then Apple should release some workflow white paper clarifying the issue.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters – oliverpeters.com
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Just to add some illustration for Oliver’s very ingenious theory (which I strongly suspect is correct), here are some screenshots:
Expected gamma curve using the Color Board in Rec.709:
Unexpected gamma curve using the Color Wheels in Rec.709:
Expected gamma curve using the Color Wheels in Rec.2020:
Unexpected gamma curve using the Color Board in Rec.2020:
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Simon Ubsdell] “I’d love to hear your thoughts.”
Feels kinda buggy to me, but couldn’t it be that Apple isn’t using a Lift/Gamma/Gain calculation for the “brightness” parameters on Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights?
There is also a “Mix” parameter on each control of Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights (MSMH). This would suggest some other form of calculation if you are mixing the original image with each MSMH parameters, and then allow mixing in between those factors. This is perhaps why the Color Board is different and uses different math (more traditional Lift/Gamma/Gain calcs as you have demonstrated) but you also can’t ‘mix’ the different values of the Color Board controls like you can with the Color Wheels.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “There is also a “Mix” parameter on each control of Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights (MSMH).”
This is a really basic function.
You can see it in any Apple filter.
It’s basically asking “how much of this effect do you want to apply, between 100% and zero?”
Again very simple maths.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
[Jeremy Garchow] “but couldn’t it be that Apple isn’t using a Lift/Gamma/Gain calculation for the “brightness” parameters on Master, Shadows, Midtones, and Highlights?”
“Brightness” is an offset control. You’re simply adding the control value to the pixel value:
pixelValue+controlValue
Offset is very useful for grading but it’s not going to replace the Lift/Gamma/Gain concept …
Edit: I should add that just because Apple give a familiar name to something, we should always be very cautious about assuming it shares the same function. Changing the meaning of names is what they like to do.
One prominent voice on that FB thread argued to me that what Apple were doing here was SMH – presumably because he was misled by the naming convention.
Simon Ubsdell
tokyo productions
hawaiki -
Typical modern internet kerfluffle.
People see something that doesn’t conform to their expectations – and the wild speculation and fantasizing begins.
This reminds me EXACTLY of 2011 when X was released.
The traditional users went all “hair on fire” screaming about how Apple had made a huge tragic mistake and ruined professional editing.
Of course they hadn’t. Just produced a new version of it that had different utilities and functions for a new type of editorial thinking.
This may be precisely in the same tradition.
Maybe it’s the Rec2020 thing Simon and Oliver are discussing.
Maybe it’s Apple looking at and reimagining how grading could be simplified and improved for a changing industry where for every theatrical movie, there’s 10,000 internet videos delivered.
The only thing I know for sure is that for 30 years now when I’ve put my faith in Apples technical development vision, the resulting ratio of hits to strikeouts has been excellent.
So I’m still willing to put my personal productivity bets there, happily.
Already this thing that started out as “Apple Screwed Up!!!!” – is rapidly backpedaling into “Apple has approached the need for modern color grading somewhat differently.”
The last time they did that, my life got easier – and I started making more money with less effort.
I’m OK with that.
Creator of XinTwo – https://www.xintwo.com
The shortest path to FCP X mastery.
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