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Tedious track based editing
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One of the issues that I think goes to the heart of the dislike of the magnetic timeline – and I believe to the heart of this thread – is that the MT is very fast for a “first cut”. BUT… I find it to be a big PITA once you get to making minute little changes. It’s great for moving big swatches around, but terrible for little precise changes, like swapping out VO or adding shots.
The reason I say it’s a PITA is because you spend just as much time managing the connecting points (changing the clip to which they are attached) and re-adjusting the arbitrary vertical stacking order of clips, as you would do with the equivalent functions in a track-based NLE. Sometimes even more. You often end up with projects that have a lot of wasted vertical space, just because of what X decided to do. Without a track structure you can’t perform the edit in a way to place a clip where you want it (vertically). You have to first make the edit and then adjust the vertical position.
In the end, all this adjusting becomes much more mouse-centric than any other NLE.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[craig slattery] “[Chris Harlan] “I’d swear that the Sirius Cybernetics Corp. is testing out a new Genuine Person Personality on the forum, here. This kind of smugness seems generated to pass the Turing Test. I’m guessing that this is one of Eddie,the shipboard computer’s alternate personalities. Personally, I prefer Marvin’s.
”I don’t even know what that means but it made me laugh out loud.
“Really? Well, any sizable computer with the proper AI components would have understood the references, so I’m guessing you’re human after all. Unless–oh, dear–you’ve reached a processing level high enough to feign an adequate lack of knowledge, pass the Turing test, and bring the Singularity upon us. Cripes!
At any rate, Craig Slattery, whether you are Carbon or Silicon-based, please be assured that many–if not most of us–who post on this site are professional editors, preditors, and creative compositors.
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[Oliver Peters] “the MT is very fast for a “first cut””
Oliver,
This does depend on your methodology for arriving at, and definition of “first cut”.
Franz.
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[Walter Soyka] “… making the relationships between clips explicit. Without these explicit, stored relationships, the editor must remember (or deduce from arrangement on the open timeline) how clips relate in order to make the correct selections before performing any timeline maneuver.”
[Walter Soyka] “… there are certainly many examples of clips which relate not just to another clip, but to a specific point on that clip — like illustrative cutaways, graphics, and sound effects — meaning that a single stored selection will not be most accurate for all editorial maneuvers”
Walter,
You’ve used this language before, and I’d like to know what you mean by it in more detail.
I think of a timeline as an explicit map of relationships – not that it doesn’t need to be interpreted, but that those relationships are there (the result of the edit). It seems to me that clip connections are only good for making certain kinds of relationships explicit (less interpretation needed) – and these would be those examples you list (illustrative cutaways, graphics, and sound effects) though in fact I’m not sure that 1 frame connections really do them justice either (each, after all, has a duration).
To restate – there are all kinds of relationships going on in a timeline; relationships are the basis of editing. Clip connections seem to focus and make explicit one kind of relationship.
But I’m not sure I’m quite understanding you on this …
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “You’ve used this language before, and I’d like to know what you mean by it in more detail.”
Absolutely. Basically, I think that FCPX allows the editor to encode the relationships between clips via temporal order and clip connections. Traditional timelines imply but do not strictly encode relationships via placement in absolute time and space (hard tracks).
[Franz Bieberkopf] “I think of a timeline as an explicit map of relationships – not that it doesn’t need to be interpreted, but that those relationships are there (the result of the edit).”
I’d agree with that. Here’s the twist:
In a traditional timeline, elements are placed in absolute time and track space, and their relationships may be inferred by the human editor from these arrangements.
In the FCPX timeline, clips are always placed relative to each other, and their place in time is derived from their relationships to other clips, and ultimately to the first clip.
A traditional timeline provides tools for moving clips through absolute time, thereby redefining their relationships. The FCPX timeline provides tools for changing clips’ relationships to each other, thereby redefining their positions in time.
FCPX is “aware” of clip relationships in away that traditional NLEs are not. Whether that’s a good thing or a bad thing is in the eye of the beholder.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
Walter,
Thanks, I think we’ve had this exact exchange before.
I’m still conceptually fuzzy on it. I somehow imagine that the “absolute time” of most NLEs is somehow equivalent to the primary storyline in FCPX – ie. I’m not really sure practically how it really makes a difference if a shot’s placement relates to absolute time or the primary storyline.
… “grouping behaviour” and “clip connections” quite aside.
Also, I think pretty broadly in terms of the kinds of relationships that exist in a timeline, and I think you’re speaking in specific terms when you use that word. (“placement” maybe?)
Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “This does depend on your methodology for arriving at, and definition of “first cut”.”
Well, of course, but I really haven’t seen much disagreement with this statement even amongst the severest critics. By “first cut”, I’m talking about the refined/polished cut that the editor develops prior to getting input from the director, client, agency, producer, etc. to make changes.
Assembly (even complex sequences) is at least fast – and for some, much faster. Part of that is making use of the Keyword/Smart Collection clip organization – not just the Magnetic Timeline. Where it gets slower for me (compared with traditional NLEs) is in the speed of trimming, especially with split-edits and dialogue editing. Also, when you have to significantly re-arrange the cut in more complex ways than just the order of clips on the primary storyline.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] ” Part of that is making use of the Keyword/Smart Collection clip organization – not just the Magnetic Timeline.”
Oliver,
You’re presuming that one should use a clip-based editing approach as opposed to sequence based editing approach.
related thread de-rail here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/40193#40342Franz.
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “You’re presuming that one should use a clip-based editing approach as opposed to sequence based editing approach.”
Yes, I understand. I know what you are getting at. When I cut documentaries or docu-style long-form videos in FCP 7 or Media Composer, I build long sequences with markers and whittle down from there. I discussed that in my blog here:
https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2010/07/22/one-bite-at-a-time/
Admittedly that’s something I’m conceptually struggling with in X, because its Project (timeline, sequence) structure is extremely weak if you are trying this type of approach.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Oliver Peters] “Admittedly that’s something I’m conceptually struggling with in X, because its Project (timeline, sequence) structure is extremely weak if you are trying this type of approach.”
Oliver,
It’s actually these sorts of ideological underpinnings that make X the least attractive option for consideration.
– A/B roll editing model
– clip-based editing model
– non-mixer, non-realtime based audio modelIt seems clear that people are using it in a variety of ways (not restricted to the above), but the design philosophy has always been a bit suspect to me.
Franz.
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