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Tedious track based editing
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “I can actually answer this – if you grab an edit point for a ripple trim pushing against timeline start – it actually sucks timeline start against you. timeline start is magnetic. no. i”m not kidding – its that stupid.
the default behaviour of FCPX is that time is relative to your current decision – you can suck time start absolute left against you.
again – I’m not joking – this is the degree to which they smoked special cigarettes in cupertino – in the process of destroying a decade industry standard.”
I know it’s a work around but the ultimate outcome is exactly the same as rippling in FCP7.
Even though I agree that the animation is executed poorly, ripple trimming 3 seconds off the head of FCPX is the same as ripple trimming 3 seconds off of the head of FCP7. X just chooses to show you the warm up area before the starting line.
I’m not making excuses as the animation is stupid and rather unnecessary. Shift-z rights the sinking ship.
Zero tc is still zero tc.
On the flip side of that, if you make a trim and you cannot see zero, the time marker stays right in the middle, so that you don’t have to hunt for it, the active area has remained conveniently in the same place.
I know, you are completely done with FCPX, but there is a reason for this animation when you can’t see zero.
This is especially apparent when you use the keyboard to trim.
I don’t know why I keep pushing this water uphill.
Jeremy
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “Thanks, I think we’ve had this exact exchange before. I’m still conceptually fuzzy on it.”
I am happy to keep trying to explain the way I see this, if you are interested and think it’s fruitful.
[Franz Bieberkopf] “I somehow imagine that the “absolute time” of most NLEs is somehow equivalent to the primary storyline in FCPX – ie. I’m not really sure practically how it really makes a difference if a shot’s placement relates to absolute time or the primary storyline.”
As I see it, it’s a question of frame of reference. With a traditional open timeline, the clock exists outside of the structure of the edit and cannot be modified. In FCPX, the primary storyline itself is the clock that drives secondary storylines and clips. As Jeremy G said [link]: “The primary is time. Control the primary, you control time.” (To which I would only add an “Mwa ha ha ha!”)
Speaking quasi-physically, open timelines have no gravity and no magnetism; clips go where you put them and stay there. When you rearrange clips, you reposition them in time.
The FCPX timeline has gravity which pulls down and to the left, and magnetism, which pushes up and to the right. When you rearrange clips, you redefine their relationships and FCPX repositions them in time accordingly.
Both let you reposition clips in time, but in a traditional timeline, you reposition clips in time directly. A timeline clip object’s temporal position is an inherent property.
In FCPX, you reposition clips in time indirectly, because a clip’s position in time is a function of its relationship to its parent clips.
The FCPX timeline is a very strictly hierarchical (parent/child) data structure. If a traditional timeline is best simplified as an EDL, FCPX’s timeline might be a RDL (relationship decision list). You can derive the EDL from the RDL, but you can’t (easily or perfectly) go the other way because the data does not exist.
The practical difference is not in what you can get done, but rather in the way you must do it.
[Franz Bieberkopf] “Also, I think pretty broadly in terms of the kinds of relationships that exist in a timeline, and I think you’re speaking in specific terms when you use that word. (“placement” maybe?)”
Yes, in this context, I am referring to placement on the timeline (since that is what the magnetic timeline is all about). Some other kinds relationships can be codified via metadata (Roles?). Others still may not be able to be codified at all.
What other relationships do you have in mind?
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Walter Soyka] “n FCPX, the primary storyline itself is the clock that drives secondary storylines and clips. As Jeremy G said [link]: “The primary is time. Control the primary, you control time.” (To which I would only add an “Mwa ha ha ha!”) “
Yes. Obviously, I am the idiot in the room today and pretty much every day. I am often wrong.
[Walter Soyka] “The FCPX timeline has gravity which pulls down and to the left, “
Mwha h…cough cough ha
Yes, clips pull down, unless of course you setup a barrier (like leaving an empty track in FCP7, which is a preset barrier, if you will) and add clips as connected. The clips added as connected will stay above until you move them or the barrier goes away. This is a space managing workaround and FCPX timeline deficiency if you must keep clips at a certain level for whatever reason.
But pull to the left…that’s only if you want it to? If you don’t want it to you can edit with the p key and put things exactly in time where you want them, connected or not, and time stands still. If you control the primary, which in turn in controlling connected clips, then you control time. You can do the same operations in FCP7, but they are mechanically different. You have to pick exactly which clips you want to move or not, you may find that locking certain tracks is easier, but then you might have to move clips out of those tracks up and down the timeline so they don’t accidentally stay put, or select all and deselect a few clips to leave them behind, or ripple everything in/out to push the timeline up and down, or Cut a clip out and set the autoselect and paste it back at an uncollided point (or paste insert), and reset autoselect.
If there are many j and l cuts in a certain section, and audio attached to video and other “loose audio”, this can get “tricky” in the sense that it’s lots of clicking and space management. It is much less tricky in FCPX as the general group and timing of that group has been defined with connections, and there is no overwriting, unless you want overwrites to happen in the primary with the position tool.
In some cases, you have to more things around first before you make an edit, just like FCP7. For instance, if you have a music track and it’s connected in the wrong place, you might have to setup something to keep it in place. Putting it in the primary is a good and easy way with convenient keyboard shortcuts, or you can setup a secondary storyline, and attach it somewhere further up the timeline.
In X you also have to determine how you want the timeline to move. Time is not relative, 3 seconds is 3 seconds.
If you need something to stay where it is in FCPX there are ways to do it, just like there are steps and ways to move disparate groups around in fcp7 to void clip collisions.
[Walter Soyka] “A timeline clip object’s temporal position is an inherent property.”
Only until you ripple? I can just as easily move clips out of it’s “inherent time” in 7 as in X. Same tools, different kb shortcuts.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Yes. Obviously, I am the idiot in the room today and pretty much every day. I am often wrong.”
Hardly! That quote was so perfectly stated I wanted to look it up to make sure I got it right.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Yes, clips pull down, unless of course you setup a barrier (like leaving an empty track in FCP7, which is a preset barrier, if you will) and add clips as connected. The clips added as connected will stay above until you move them or the barrier goes away. This is a space managing workaround and FCPX timeline deficiency if you must keep clips at a certain level for whatever reason.”
Here’s where I’m the idiot in the room, and where I go wrong. The FCPX timeline feels very physical to me in a very different way than the traditional timeline does. While nothing will happen in a traditional timeline that the user doesn’t explicitly order, the FCPX magnetic timeline has a system of rules that guide operations during timeline maneuvers.
One of those rules is that two clips can’t exist in the same place at the same time. Just like the floor stops me from falling into the basement, so too do lower “barrier” clips stop the clips above them from falling down. The gravity I naively referred to wants to pull clips down as far as it can, but it stops when they hit another clip.
[Jeremy Garchow] “But pull to the left…that’s only if you want it to? If you don’t want it to you can edit with the p key and put things exactly in time where you want them, connected or not, and time stands still.”
Same deal as above. Clips pull as far to the left as they can, until something else — another clip, a connection anchor, or a gap — stops them. The P key does not let you reposition a clip in time absolutely; it lets you redefine the relationship of that clip to its parents (and antecedents?), either by sliding the parent-side location of the connection anchor point or by creating a gap object that acts just like your “barrier clip” in the above example.
Am I that off? Doesn’t everything always go as far down and as far left as it can? And if you want to change that behavior, don’t you have to put something in there?
[Walter Soyka] “A [traditional] timeline clip object’s temporal position is an inherent property.”
[Jeremy Garchow] “Only until you ripple? I can just as easily move clips out of it’s “inherent time” in 7 as in X. Same tools, different kb shortcuts.”
Same result, but a different operation. A traditional ripple tool offsets the temporal position properties of all affected clips equally. FCPX’s magnetic ripples are the result of a change to a child’s parent(s), not a change to the child itself.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Aindreas Gallagher] “can we not just say it is dying on the vine now?
Isn’t this a deliciously near dead editing system? The motion of editing?
haven’t we actually killed it?
“Good to hear your familiar war cry again Aindreas
Steve Connor
‘It’s just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure” -
[Jeremy Garchow] “Yes, clips pull down, unless of course you setup a barrier (like leaving an empty track in FCP7, which is a preset barrier, if you will) and add clips as connected. The clips added as connected will stay above until you move them or the barrier goes away. This is a space managing workaround and FCPX timeline deficiency if you must keep clips at a certain level for whatever reason.
But pull to the left…that’s only if you want it to? If you don’t want it to you can edit with the p key and put things exactly in time where you want them, connected or not, and time stands still. If you control the primary, which in turn in controlling connected clips, then you control time. You can do the same operations in FCP7, but they are mechanically different. You have to pick exactly which clips you want to move or not, you may find that locking certain tracks is easier, but then you might have to move clips out of those tracks up and down the timeline so they don’t accidentally stay put, or select all and deselect a few clips to leave them behind, or ripple everything in/out to push the timeline up and down, or Cut a clip out and set the autoselect and paste it back at an uncollided point (or paste insert), and reset autoselect.
If there are many j and l cuts in a certain section, and audio attached to video and other “loose audio”, this can get “tricky” in the sense that it’s lots of clicking and space management. It is much less tricky in FCPX as the general group and timing of that group has been defined with connections, and there is no overwriting, unless you want overwrites to happen in the primary with the position tool.
In some cases, you have to more things around first before you make an edit, just like FCP7. For instance, if you have a music track and it’s connected in the wrong place, you might have to setup something to keep it in place. Putting it in the primary is a good and easy way with convenient keyboard shortcuts, or you can setup a secondary storyline, and attach it somewhere further up the timeline.
In X you also have to determine how you want the timeline to move. Time is not relative, 3 seconds is 3 seconds.
If you need something to stay where it is in FCPX there are ways to do it, just like there are steps and ways to move disparate groups around in fcp7 to void clip collisions.
“This is all true and as I keep saying, you can only understand this if you actually spend a considerable amount of time learning the software. The workflow issues others are describing are not actual issues when you have experience with FCPX.
I think Editors by nature are a conservative bunch, so I understand why a large amount wouldn’t want to make the effort when there is no obvious benefit to them.
Steve Connor
‘It’s just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure” -
[Walter Soyka] “Same deal as above. Clips pull as far to the left as they can, until something else — another clip, a connection anchor, or a gap — stops them. The P key does not let you reposition a clip in time absolutely; it lets you redefine the relationship of that clip to its parents (and antecedents?), either by sliding the parent-side location of the connection anchor point or by creating a gap object that acts just like your “barrier clip” in the above example.
Am I that off? Doesn’t everything always go as far down and as far left as it can? And if you want to change that behavior, don’t you have to put something in there?”
Not exactly if you don’t work in the primary, put a two hour gap clip in the primary, only work in secondaries and the “magnetic” element disappears. The gap clip is still the parent as the clips are all connected to it, but if you don’t manipulate the gap clip then the secondary clips are, to all intents and purposes, independent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sovqGU4pXw&feature=plcp
Steve Connor
‘It’s just my opinion, with an occasional fact thrown in for good measure”Some contents or functionalities here are not available due to your cookie preferences!This happens because the functionality/content marked as “Google Youtube” uses cookies that you choosed to keep disabled. In order to view this content or use this functionality, please enable cookies: click here to open your cookie preferences.
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[Steve Connor] “This is all true and as I keep saying, you can only understand this if you actually spend a considerable amount of time learning the software. The workflow issues others are describing are not actual issues when you have experience with FCPX.
I think Editors by nature are a conservative bunch, so I understand why a large amount wouldn’t want to make the effort when there is no obvious benefit to them.”
I don’t think it’s about editors being conservative as much as it is (as you correctly point out) unintuitive and in many cases, its limitations outweigh any potential benefits.
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
publicmattersgroup.com
facebook.com/dlawrence
twitter.com/dhl -
[Aindreas Gallagher] “I can actually answer this – if you grab an edit point for a ripple trim pushing against timeline start – it actually sucks timeline start against you. timeline start is magnetic. no. i”m not kidding – its that stupid.”
What’s the alternative? Showing a non-ripple trim, creating a gap between the timeline start and the head of the first clip, then running a ripple-deleting animation for the gap when the user lets go? Shortening the first clip, leaving the trimming in locked against the start of the timeline, making it difficult to distinguish which end you’re trimming?
The alternatives are misleading. I actually think the current animation, bizarre as it may seem, is actually the clearest about what is going on.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Steve Connor] “Not exactly if you don’t work in the primary, put a two hour gap clip in the primary, only work in secondaries and the “magnetic” element disappears. The gap clip is still the parent as the clips are all connected to it, but if you don’t manipulate the gap clip then the secondary clips are, to all intents and purposes, independent.”
Right, but that’s all still perfectly consistent with the magnetic elements as I described above and still follows the “pull in until you hit something” idea. The children are all still relative to their parent (the gap), and it’s only absolute to the extent that you pinky-swear to yourself not to manipulate that gap.
If Apple allowed multiple primaries, then relative time would really go away.
My late-night zen view: if you want to move a river, you don’t move the water. You move the earth it flows through.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events
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