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Some Mathmatics on P2 Cards
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How many ENG style p2 cameras Panny has sold? 100? 500?
How many cards? 500? 1000?
There has to be two more digits in these numbers before any 3rd party manufacturer gets interested.
Before that there is no competition.
I’d rather pay $8k for the camera if 8GB cards were less than $1k…How many tv channels will buy nonHD cameras next year?
Sony has been selling F900 for five years.
Varicam has been in market for four years.
There has to be new models soon.
So there might also be new formats.There might be need for p2 adapter for eg. compact flash.
CF cards have same size than p2 now and fastest CF cards record faster than 80Mbps.
Still the price is less than 1/5th of p2… -
[Blub] ” If you spend $1 or $12,000 for a daily shoot you must archive it. You must copy those P2s to tape so its not on a drive or forever loaded in those p2s. So you spend $12000 for the P2s then you spend $104 more for the tape to archive it. What? “
I keep hearing this word “achive” but do you know museams don’t consider anything archival that won’t last 50 years. The video industry should use the term “dump to tape” and not “archive”. Tape is a very poor archiving medium and this industry has needed a new vehical for this purpose for a long time. DVD is more stable but unfortunately is also highly compressed. Perhaps the holographic storage mentioned in Graeme Nattress’s link further down this thread will be the answer for true archiving of our masters. Incidently you have to copy and paste that link as only the 1st half is hyper sensitive. I’ll try to re-do Graeme’s link – Holographic HHHUUUUMMMM… this doesn’t seem to work so cut and paste https://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1785630,00.asp
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See this link on CC for details on how to provide a hot link(not extra spaces or quotations that might throw the command codes off):
My take on this topic is… wait and see, you can’t even buy the camcorder yet. 6 months from now, the whole scene could change, prices, workflows, bunch of other issues. Might even have a dual core PB with 120G Seagate drive as a BTO. But you’ll still need a dual core, DP G5 to run Shake—now that you’ve saved so much on the mini-varicam (which is a silly comparison, since you can’t match that one for lenses, or larger CCD’s sensitivity/dynamic range, etc.,etc.), you’ll really have to get the newest version of Shake, yes 😉
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Sorry, let me add a question:
How many years do you need to reach 100,000 rewriting cycles? Assuming that you use them ALL DAYS (including Saturday and Sunday) and that you make 2 cycles per day (very optimistic), you’d need…
100000/365/2= 137 years!!!
Yes, I am sure that you are NOT expecting to amortize your investment in 137 years…
Please, be a bit more rational. Don’t try to compare with tape in terms of cost/min because it’s not logical. Do you store your personal pictures in flash memory? And in HDD? No, you at the end stores in optical media (probably DVD) due to $/MB.
Even more… If you try to let your PCMCIA inside your camcorder, and you don’t transfer the content into NLE system (to save time), you will have your camcorder stopped for shooting during… how much time? Are you able to make an edition with on line quality in few minutes? No, you will need some hours (even for only the 8 minutes of the ridiculous memory autonomy in HD). That is, more impossible to make two rewriting cycles per day.
This is impractical today… maybe in ?? years.
Regards
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[David] Please, be a bit more rational. Don’t try to compare with tape in terms of cost/min because it’s not logical.
David, you’re absolutetly right, we can’t really compare P2 on a 1:1 basis with tape, it’s just not a straight or fair comparison. We need to learn to think of P2 as a new form of aquisition, much in the way we think of flash cards for digital still cameras.
Do you store your personal pictures in flash memory? And in HDD? No, you at the end stores in optical media (probably DVD) due to $/MB.
Again, you’re absolutely right, no one should plan on using P2 cards for storage, that’s not what they are designed for. As you said, it comes down to the cost of $/MB, which is why I recommeded earlier archiving footage onto Hard Drives. While you’re right that hard drives are not the best choice for photos (where you are concerned with MB of data) they make much more sense for high definition footage (where you are talking about GB of data). If you compare the prices of $/GB, hard drives are the most cost effective solution (even when compared to tape).
Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas -
[Luis Caffesse] “If you compare the prices of $/GB, hard drives are the most cost effective solution”
Hdd: $.5/GB
Dvd: $.1/GB -
[toke lahti] “Hdd: $.5/GB
Dvd: $.1/GB”I guess I should have been clearer.
My point was that when dealing with High Definition footage back, where you will have much more than 4.7GB of backup, a HDD makes more sense due not only to the hard cost per GB, but the ease of use and time taken to back up the files. In post, time is money. The time taken to backup all those files to individual DVD-R discs outweighs the .4/GB difference in hard costs.That was my thought anyhow.
Luis Caffesse
Studio 3 Productions, Inc.
Austin, Texas -
[David] “Sorry, let me add a question:”
No need to be sorry, this is a discussion and you have raised some valid points.
[David] “How many years do you need to reach 100,000 rewriting cycles? Assuming that you use them ALL DAYS (including Saturday and Sunday) and that you make 2 cycles per day (very optimistic), you’d need…
100000/365/2= 137 years!!! “
Wow! I never got that far in my equations! By 2 cycles per day do you mean 16 minutes? 2 X 8GB cards?[David] “Please, be a bit more rational.
Don’t try to compare with tape in terms of cost/min because it’s not logical. Do you store your personal pictures in flash memory? And in HDD? No, you at the end stores in optical media (probably DVD) due to $/MB. “
At the time I switched to digital with my still camera the only affordable burners for DVD were the Pioneer 101’s and later the 201’s which were $7200.00 at the time and DVD’s for it were about $50.00 each! My, how things have changed! I backed up everything to cd in those days. I’ve only recently started backing up to DVD. My 1st. 96MB card was $450.00 and taxes which was about the cost of a case (100 -36exp.) rolls of film and this card(I still have has paid for itself)
[David] “Even more… If you try to let your PCMCIA inside your camcorder, and you don’t transfer the content into NLE system (to save time), you will have your camcorder stopped for shooting during… how much time? Are you able to make an edition with on line quality in few minutes? No, you will need some hours (even for only the 8 minutes of the ridiculous memory autonomy in HD). That is, more impossible to make two rewriting cycles per day. “
Are you saying “if you transfer your date through firewire instead of removing the cards to a computer you will have down time? Yes this is correct. Presently with only 8GB cards available there are limitations especially for HD where you get 8min per card. With only 2 slots it would be difficult to hot swap for continuous shooting on this model.
I’m not sure what you mean by “hours” to transfer 8 minutes.Still, by the math in the 1st thread, P2 cards are 1/600th the cost of tape for HD at present. Divide 137 years by 600 and this technology is still a good deal.
The whole point of this thread was to dispell the idea that P2 cards are astronomically expensive. They are like buying several years supply of tape all a once. (not fun but consider it an investment, it will come back as savings eventually) I agree we need bigger cards for practical HD work.
If we look at what cameras we presently own and look at how long we’ve had them, we will appreciate the AG-HVX200 will be more and more usefull as time passes. We buy this stuff for the long run.
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