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So anyway, 4K
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[Gary Huff] “Because GPUs are being used in conjunction with CPUs now for processing video content.”
Gary,
My approach has always been that hardware upgrades should be geared to workflow, and workflow is often quite specific.
As an example, additional graphics cards aren’t going to benefit a FCP7 ProRes edit. It’s unclear what the particular demands on that particular system will be next. Still, I appreciate the suggestion and may come back to if and when appropriate.
Franz.
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My biggest question is how are people delivering 4K? And is that 4K being presented as 4K, and how is it being shown?
Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
[Herb Sevush] “Planning on switching our 5 camera PBS cooking show to SONY F55s “
Great camera, fantastic images, very happy with ours!
Steve Connor
Class Bully
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[Franz Bieberkopf] “As an example, additional graphics cards aren’t going to benefit a FCP7 ProRes edit.”
Yes, you’re right. Nothing to be gained from going the GPU route for a Final Cut Pro 7 workflow. Curious as to why a 2011 Mac Pro would even be purchased, as a 2008 would be more than enough.
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[Rich Rubasch] “We need an organization (SMTPE?) to come up with standards for file deliveries…..how much slate, bars, black etc. Everyone wants something different. It’s going to get worse with 4k. Is there even a 4k tape delverable?”
No, there is no “4K” tape recording format. HDCamSR tapped out in its later versions at 2048. My SRW-5500 ‘only’ does 1920×1080 (and capable of 720P, but never used it for that).
But. True enough. I did respond with some more Resolve-centric points on this thread in the DaVinci Resolve forum.
SMPTE does have recommendations for how channels should be assigned, order of program elements… they’re good for legal documents and quoting official-sounding references like SMPTE 320M-B. Some of these things, no one knows what they are, most are just plain ignored, and most of them you have no control over, anyway.
Like, are you sure you are supplying time code at SMPTE 12M standard, and your video conforms with 274M?
I feel the “deliverable” pain. I have a stack of binders from a couple of dozen broadcasters — sometimes even from subdivisions of that broadcaster where the deliverables have their own sub-variants. The worst part of these is usually audio channel assignment, not even basic leader/slate requirements. Really, who even cares about that stuff any more? Its probably not even digitized at the pickup point.
I do agree that things are going to get even worse, plus, the expectation is that most of us will have to start paying for extremely fat pipes to upload all this stuff. Not to mention the issues that we are already encountering with portions of the file disappearing.. like, you know… the captions and stuff. I see the final encoding of all the VANC data, like captions, plus Dolby E, &tc., getting beyond the control of those people who, really, just wanted to upload their show. And textless elements, and separate titles, and every audio stem known to man, in a variety of frame rates, resolutions, bitrates…
Tape was easy, and, with an insert-edit… revisable. Now you have to re-compress and re-upload the whole shebang, even if you wanted to change one pixel. So is all-or-nothing really such a great idea– because that is what we have with file-based anything no matter what format it is.
jPo
“I always pass on free advice — its never of any use to me” Oscar Wilde.
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There are many solutions for recording 4K including the company I’m working for at NAB – AJA. Knowing that the GH4 actually sends 10 bit 4K out via the HDMI, I expect to see a lot of new gear at NAB…
If I was to actually shoot with the GH4 I would want to test the 200Mbit 1080p vs. the 100Mbit 4K – which in camera is a lowly 25Mbit per 1080 quadrant. Which means the 1080p recording has 8 times the data of the 4K internal!
For the most part there is no current reason to master/deliver in 4K unless you have a theatrical run and a 4K delivery requirement. This will change obviously in the future when there are more 4K outlets…
Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 -
[Lance Bachelder] “If I was to actually shoot with the GH4 I would want to test the 200Mbit 1080p vs. the 100Mbit 4K – which in camera is a lowly 25Mbit per 1080 quadrant. Which means the 1080p recording has 8 times the data of the 4K internal!”
I would rather record out the HDMI to ProRes HQ at 10-bit 4:2:2 than 200Mbps 8-bit 4:2:0. That sounds like overkill.
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Of course – hopefully we’ll see something like a Ninja Blade 4K at NAB….
Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Downtown Long Beach, California
https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1680680/?ref_=fn_al_nm_1 -
I’m different, coming at this from design rather than editorial, and from staging rather than video.
[Tim Wilson] “– Are you working with it in native 4K/5k? “
Yes, and beyond. The largest raster I’ve dealt with this year was nine times UHD.
[Tim Wilson] “– Aside from the frame dimensions, what format?”
Mostly synthetic footage. Lots of image sequences, a bit of CineForm and ProRes intermediates.
[Tim Wilson] “– What’s your distribution? (theatrical, tv, non-broadcast, corporate, etc.)”
Large-format events and installations.
[Tim Wilson] “– How much did it cost for you to upgrade your systems to handle 4K/5K (computers, storage, etc.)”
I didn’t really upgrade for 4K as I’ve been doing large-format work for a while. Beyond what most folks here may generally have (nice workstations and rast RAIDs), I’ve invested thousands of dollars on top-spec CPUs, piles of RAM and solid-state PCIe storage.
[Tim Wilson] ” I think it’s important to those other threads to START with the experience of people who are ACTUALLY doing it. For the rest of you, if you ARE interested, will you be looking at NAB? What will you need to find in order to make you act?”
I’ll take this as an invitation to discuss the challenges of high-res work as I see them today, and why we are doing some 4K but not all-4K-all-the-time.
4K monitors are rare in the real world. Those 2160p30 Seiki monitors don’t count.
High-res deliverable standards don’t really exist yet. I’m more concerned about UHD (3840×2160) than any other flavor of 4K at the moment — but HEVC and Rec. 2020 haven’t really landed yet.
The biggie: engineering (at least in the staging and rental space) hasn’t caught up with acquisition. The current generation of routing and switching hardware in the channel are largely 3G-SDI or single-link DVI. This means that there’s still a bit of rocket science involved in high-res applications. I’m still mainly measuring my work in split and synchronized channels of HD and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.
What I am primarily looking for at NAB (or since I’m not going this year, what I am hoping to primarily look for vicariously through others) is DisplayPort/6G UHD-SDI signal distribution and processing hardware. Other interests include broader 4K monitoring support and more resolution-independence in software.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
I’ve looked at a number of examples fro the GH4 and despite increased resolution, it exhibits the same “issue” for serious work that I found with the GH3 (that I picked up as an inexpensive 60p camera) – skin tones and depth of the codec.
I haven’t seen anything from it regarding people – which are my main subjects vs cats and city traffic at night – that comes close to the image from even my BMPCC. I’d so much rather have 10 bit ProRes in camera than more detail wrapped in AVCHD.
To me, at 1080p where all my work ends up and most will for quite a while to come, less DR (BMPC) or thinner “negative” (GH4) doesn’t win the argument. Now, an F55 is another issue. But honestly, regardless of it’s simplicity/lack of features, the image from even the $1k BMPCC wins the day for my work.
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