-
slow motion in FCP7 – (back to stone age?)
Hi, I have read quite a bit on this and I have found one way to solve this and figured out one by myself. I just can’t believe FCP does not have a straight forward way to deal with over-cranked footage on a lower frame rate timeline to produce slomo. Both two ways I currently know to do this, work fine but make me feel like a caveman: I could make a fire in a simple way with a match had I had one (a tool in FCP to treat over and under-cranked footage in a timeline) but I have to light the fire by hitting stones onto another (go round the way and figure out other tools and ways to do the slomo that introduce difficulty into the process and are more time consuming).
So, my camera (JVC GY-HM100) shoots 720p60 (59,94 that is) and 720p50 (I live in Europe but I will treat everything for the NTSC standard to make it easier to most people here although the “math” is the same – just for writing convenience I’ll round 29,97 and 59,94 to 30 and 60 respectively).
What do I want to do? I want to make slow motions on a 30fps timeline. I went out shooting 720p60 convinced that once in FCP, there would be a way to tell a 30fps timeline to “see” every frame of this 60fps clip, in which case it would double the clip’s length and halve its speed, of course. Since normally inserting this clip to this timeline will delete every other frame (to conform it to the previous clips already there), I thought a professional app like FCO would enable one to do the opposite: keep the frame number but lower the frame rate therefore augmenting the clip’s length. To my knowledge, this is impossible to do in FCP. Am I right?
So, we’re left with the Change Speed command. One could think “ok, I’ll insert the 60fps clip into the 30fps timeline and then change the speed to 50%”. But this will not have the same result as having all the 60 frames shot, played at half speed. It will interpolate between frames and render the slomo very “foggy” and watching it is not pleasant. Advancing one clip at a time, one can see that every other frame is kind of “ghosty”; it seems like a ghost image that is mimicking movement is showing at the same time as the previous or next frame.
One way I found to do this. The way I found on the web to solve this is sending the 60fps clip to Motion after it is inserted on the 30fps timeline in FCP (which sees only half the shot frames). Once in Motion, I access the Media tab of the Inspector and change the frame rate to 30fps as Motion still sees the original media in the frame rate (60) it was shot. So after changing the frame rate (and doing a couple more adjustments) and saving, returning to FCP we have the clip in slomo and without the “ghosty” effect. Having a 30fps timeline with this “new” 30fps clip from Motion and a 60fps timeline with the original 60fps clip opened at the same time, advancing one frame at a time one can see that all the frames in both sequences are the same. Only difference: on the 30fps timeline, 60 frames of the clip are 2 seconds in length and on the 60fps timeline the same 60fps are just 1 second (obviously).
Another way to do it. (This one was like inspiration; it just occurred to me since I shoot some time-lapses with a stills camera and use this same process to make a video clip out of those still images with the difference that I want to speed something up and not slow it down.) Insert the 60fps clip to a 60fps timeline and export the clip from FCP using QT conversion -> Image Sequence to a folder (for those who may not know, this will export every frame of video as a still image to the chosen folder). After that, open QuickTime (7 Pro, not the cheesy new one), and File -> Open Image Sequence and choose the folder you had exported the clips as stills to. Open the image sequence at 30fps and save the QT movie that is created. Insert this clip to a 30fps timeline and that’s it. The clip will play at the 30fps sequence base but t was made from a 60fps original clip so it will have half the speed and double the length.
So, after all this, I still wish that someone will show up here and say: you don’t need to go through all that. You just go to FCP and in “here” or “there” there is this specific command to do just that. Is there such a command in FCP?
Thanks to all, and if there is no built in tool on FCP to do this, hope the QuickTime method I just explained can help someone as to me I prefer this over the Motion method.
-
21 Replies
-
[Ricardo Guerreiro] “I went out shooting 720p60 convinced that once in FCP, there would be a way to tell a 30fps timeline to “see” every frame of this 60fps clip, in which case it would double the clip’s length and halve its speed, of course…. To my knowledge, this is impossible to do in FCP. Am I right? “
You are right. THis isn’t possible in FCP, Avid…not sure about Premiere or Vegas. But that is NOT how the NLE’s I know work.
But in the FCS world this is VERY easy to deal with. Capture the footage and use Cinema Tools to CONFORM it to the frame rate you want. That will do a frame for frame conversion. BUT, this won’t work with GOP formats like XDCAM or HDV, like that camera records. So you need to first convert it to an I-Frame format…individual frames…so that it has the individual frames in order to do this conversion. GOP is 3 real frames with a bunch of pictures in between that guess at the image that is supposed to be displayed.
So convert to ProRes, then CONFORM to the frame rate you want.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
Thanks Shane.
Well, I think that’s a bit nuts as I’m sure this is not a technological limitation. I’m sure it would be a matter of a couple of code lines in the writing of FCP to be able to do this. Motion can do it, why shouldn’t the main editing tool of the suite? I mean, titling and graphics, I can understand that FCP does not do it but to deal with over and under-crank, to me that’s still in the editing business, no? To me looks like a silly limitation to have to work around this by launching other apps, converting footage to other formats, conform, etc… hey, but that’s me. Thanks again. -
[Ricardo Guerreiro] “So, we’re left with the Change Speed command. One could think “ok, I’ll insert the 60fps clip into the 30fps timeline and then change the speed to 50%”. But this will not have the same result as having all the 60 frames shot, played at half speed. It will interpolate between frames and render the slomo very “foggy” and watching it is not pleasant. Advancing one clip at a time, one can see that every other frame is kind of “ghosty”; it seems “
Your reasoning is sound, but you just missed a small step. Uncheck “frame blending” in the speed change dialog box and the “ghostly” effect will disappear. FCP uses frame blending by default, which blends two adjacent fames by overlaying them on each other. Obviously this is not what you want, so you need to manually turn off frame blending.
-
[Ricardo Guerreiro] ” I’m sure it would be a matter of a couple of code lines in the writing of FCP to be able to do this.”
If it were don’t you think it would have been done by now? Avid has been around for a couple of decades….FCP isn’t too new either. Premiere too. So the fact that no one does this “simple” think points to the fact that it ain’t as simple as a few lines of code. Do you write computer code?
[Ricardo Guerreiro] ” Motion can do it, why shouldn’t the main editing tool of the suite?”
Motion serves a different purpose…as does After Effects. DIfferent goals, different ways of doing things. Would you edit a show in Motion? Why doesn’t it allow you do add audio tracks and do an audio mix? It’s as simple as a few lines of code…
[Ricardo Guerreiro] “but to deal with over and under-crank, to me that’s still in the editing business, no?”
Yes…which is why CINEMA TOOLS, that comes with FCP for free, allows you to convert this footage properly. You just need to get the footage into a format that has individual frames to convert. As HDV and AVCHD and XDCAM don’t.
[Ricardo Guerreiro] “To me looks like a silly limitation to have to work around this by launching other apps, converting footage to other formats, conform, etc… hey, but that’s me. “
It is so rediculously easy that it shouldn’t be bothersome.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
“If it were don’t you think it would have been done by now? Avid has been around for a couple of decades….FCP isn’t too new either. Premiere too. So the fact that no one does this “simple” think points to the fact that it ain’t as simple as a few lines of code. Do you write computer code?”
Yes, Apple has wy to may things that I don’t understand how over the years are not implemented for me to think that they would just have done it by now. Motion does it, Cinema Tools also… I think there’s no other argument to use here. Why not incorporate this feature to the editing app?
“Motion serves a different purpose…as does After Effects. DIfferent goals, different ways of doing things. Would you edit a show in Motion? Why doesn’t it allow you do add audio tracks and do an audio mix? It’s as simple as a few lines of code…”
That’s precisely my point. I would not edit in motion. That’s why I think an editing tool as dealing with over and under-cranked footage would be better off in FCP (the editing app) than in Motion, or at least be in both as for effects it maybe be useful also.
“Yes…which is why CINEMA TOOLS, that comes with FCP for free, allows you to convert this footage properly. You just need to get the footage into a format that has individual frames to convert. As HDV and AVCHD and XDCAM don’t. ”
Okay, so you still think that (1) converting footage in FCP to some format that Cinema Tools deals with, (2) launching another app (Cinema Tools), (3) conforming the footage, (4) coming back to FCP with the new clip is acceptable when you could just load any clip on the timeline and do it in just one step (like it’s done in Motion)? Okay, fine… I don’t.
Tell me that it is virtually impossible to make FCP do this and I could accept that. But, the original media having the frames, loading the clip to a lower frame rate timeline and having a way to tell the FCP “hey, instead of deleting every other frame,don’t! Show every frame in the timeline and lengthen the clip so that it keeps the timeline’s frame rate” cannot be so difficult. I’m pretty sure that it is far more complicated to do frame blending than to make the app show every frame. Come on, do you believe this is a big deal to do? Again, Motion does this in just one step. Saying that it is just a couple of lines of code can be exaggerated but imagining the colossal bulk of code involved in an app like FCP, come on, it can’t be that big of a deal.
Thanks for expressing your opinion.
-
Thanks Alan, I’ll try that but that might solve the ghost image problem… but will it show the frames that were originally left off? See my point? Load a 60fps clip to a 30fps timeline. FCP will only show every other frame. Use Change Speed and it will do frame blending. Uncheck Frame Blending and it will not do it anymore. But changing the speed this way, with Frame Blending unchecked, will probably not re-incorporate the lost frames (assuming a 50% speed change) which was what I wanted, or will it?
So the thing is; Imagine shooting in film at 48fps. Showing the film on standard projector speed, will result in half the speed for the images seen. Now imagine that the projector has a will of its own (will personify the projector just for sarcastic example), and “a scissor in its hand” and cuts every other frame from the film every time you load the film to it. You’re left with half the frames and playing them at standard projector speed will render the original speed of the subjects shot and not slomo as you wanted. Just an analogy as to what FCP does. Now, you could see Motion as a projector without its own will, one you are able to say “hey friend, don’t cut these frames out but play at regular frame rate so it shows as slomo”…
-
[Ricardo Guerreiro] “But changing the speed this way, with Frame Blending unchecked, will probably not re-incorporate the lost frames (assuming a 50% speed change) which was what I wanted, or will it? “
I just tried it and you’re right, FCP won’t restore the excised frames. Pity.
However, it took me less than 10 seconds to open the clip (ProRes 720p60) in Cinema Tools, click “Conform,” choose 29.97, close Cinema Tools, reimport the clip into FCP and voila – it played at half speed in a 29.97fps timeline perfectly with no dropped frames. It’s trivial, really.
It is not at all difficult to use Cinema Tools. In your particular case I suppose it is because you shot HDV, which is a long-GOP format not supported by Cinema Tools. I’m not bashing you for using a consumer format – XDCAM ad AVCIntra users are in the same boat. In your case it would benefit you to capture your footage as ProRes instead of HDV. It will be less processor intensive to edit, and it will be trivial to reconform in Cinema Tools should the need arise.
I assume that FCP handles 60p footage in a 29.97 timeline the way it does because 99% of the time, users just wants everything to play back in a way that looks consistent. Slow motion fluidity (when not done by using VFR overcranking in-camera) is not a primary consideration. In defining format behavior, Apple will most likely attempt to support the most common scenario first.
I would encourage you to submit your feedback to the Apple development team for consideration.
-
Well, no matter what, HDV wouldn’t be able to do this at all because of the GOP structure…nor XDCAM…because of the GOP structure. No real frames. Because there are no real frames there is nothing that can be done to slow them down…spread out the 60fps to 30fps. You need to convert it to a format that does have individual frames…like ProRes.
SO regardless of the NLE not doing this, you chose a format that cannot do this without conversion.
Shane
GETTING ORGANIZED WITH FINAL CUT PRO DVD…don’t miss it.
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def -
Well, the GY-HM100 (my camera) shoots XDCAM EX… So no deal with Cinema Tools without prior convertion to ProRes or something like that. And if I can do it without convertion on Motion, I won’t bother converting just to do it on Cinema Tools. I get to the same point. There is an app doing it str8 from the original XDCAM media, an app on the same suite as FCP I don’t buy the “this is technologically or programing wise hard or impossible to do”. Yes it is easy to do on Motion… but why should I have to go back and forth? Effects, graphics, perfectly acceptable to go back and forth. Slomo, for me it’s not.
I will post feedback to Apple but since it seems everybody thinks it is perfectly natural to have 4 extra steps on their workflow maybe I’m the one that’s nuts. Sorry, in that case.
Cheers and again thaks to both for exchanging thoughts.
-
“SO regardless of the NLE not doing this, you chose a format that cannot do this without conversion. ”
So, is there a special technology in Motion that enables the program to do it on GOP media? I certainly did not convert to ProRes prior to make the timeline in motion play all the frames and thus halving the speed of the clip.
Thanks.
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up