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slightly ghetto san
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Chris Said..
Perhaps this is a Mac thing…but in our Windows based facility using the Apace vStor, we can share our office IT network right along with the vStor’s shared video storage using just one 48-port switch. I don’t recall the brand or anything, but it was an $800 switch recommended by Apace. We can also set-up one of the 4 edit systems to act as a gateway of sorts for our office PCs (11 of them) to have access to the audio and video on the vStor with no noticeable impact to editing performance. The vStor also works happily with Final Cut and the majority of systems they sell are to Final Cut facilities.(Reply)
It’s a Mac OS Limitation of how fast AFP allows you to go. 30-50MB/sec with no Jumbo Frames and 70/80MB sec with jumbo frames are achievable and sustainable under OS 10.5.8.Chris Said..
The Apace vStor can use jumbo frames, but it’s default from the factory uses an MTU of 1500 and we consistently got read speeds above 75MB/sec and write speeds above 60MB/sec. We eventually enabled jumbo frames on the vStor (and the $25 intel GB ethernet cards from TigerDirect in each workstation) and saw about a 20% increase in read/write speeds. Each workstation has 2 ethernet cards, one that uses a static IP address to link to the vStor, with the other using static IP addresses to connect to the office network.(Reply)
I suspect this is referring to Windows or Linux? … because a that $25 dollar Intel card for a Mac is closer to $99.00 from Small Tree.Chris Said..
Now I don’t know if this is all the exact same thing as what’s being discussed here…but we were told repeatedly by other companies (EditShare, Studio Network Solutions, Tiger Technology and others) that what we’re doing could NOT be done using one switch. I’m here to tell you it CAN be done and is being done everyday in facilities using Apace products. We get 3-4 real-time streams of DVCPro50 video across 3 edit systems, with the fourth getting at least 1 or 2 real-time streams while being used for compositing. We see virtually NO hiccups, no pauses, no issues whatsoever. I can count on one hand the number of times playback has paused or stopped during editing in 18 months of use. I can count on one hand the number of times a render stopped or had corrupt frames. I can count on no hands the amount of down-time or file corruption we’ve had (since it’s zero).I have no idea how the engineers at Apace achieve this kind of performance when everyone, and I mean EVERYONE else says you cannot do it. But I’m here to say they do it.
I realize the thread is talking about a DIY sort of scenario with Macs, and perhaps using one switch isn’t possible with them. But it IS possible with affordable, turn-key products that just plain work. No fuss, no headaches, no figuring anything out.
(Reply)
It’s possible with Mac’s certainly — However, it’s easy to get corruption if the network, server, and storage are not all doing their part correctly. This is so in any network where you have real time access or other simultaneous access.The fact remains that there are Mac focus solutions from places like Small Tree, Maxx Digital, and ProMax, on the market that are run over Ethernet networks to SAS/SATA based Storage.
Chris said…
So my advice is STOP trying save $5000 or $10,000 and build a system from existing components. Just bite the bullet and pay for a system that’s gonna work and has a 5 year warranty and FREE technical support. You’ll be glad you did.(Reply)
Yea, good advice… I say don’t spend $20,000 when you can spend half of that and get into an Ethernet based solution for Mac that was designed for Real Time Video Editing in a Shared Storage environment – shoot on over to Small Tree’s forum and read about GraniteSTOR!Good luck
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Matt Geier: I say don’t spend $20,000 when you can spend half of that and get into an Ethernet based solution for Mac that was designed for Real Time Video Editing in a Shared Storage environment – shoot on over to Small Tree’s forum and read about GraniteSTOR!
I don’t know if you’re associated with Small Tree or not, but that’s my point. Apace has 4-6TB solutions that run under $10,000. Add a $800-$1000 switch and a few network cards and you can have an entry level system that works right out of the box along with great customer service for between $10-12,000.
Apace tech people spent literally 2-3 hours using Go To Meeting to set up the vStor and our 4 edit systems, assigning IP addresses, configuring the drives etc. Then a few days later spent another hour tweaking some settings and diagnosing come cabling issues we had in one suite.
I am NOT associated with Apace. I’m just a customer with 25 years in this business who’s seen countless computer, non-linear editing and storage companies tout products that don’t work the way they’re supposed to, or fail repeatedly. Apace’s products do exactly what they claim, they’re rock solid, and their customer service is excellent.
When you consider the complexity of shared video editing, along with the demands placed on the hardware, and the need for 24/7 reliable performance, solutions like their’s just seem to be a no-brainer to me…especially considering their systems work with Avid, Final Cut and a whole host of other NLE systems, including Harris VelocityQ, Canopus Edius, Sony Vegas, and Adobe Premiere.
When we were researching systems, they were the ONLY company that provided me with a list of past clients to contact to get feedback. All of those companies (four of them) were using Final Cut. All had similar experiences to mine in terms of service as well.
Apace was the only company that gave me a money back guarantee…in writing!
I also have to compliment the reseller we dealt with…IEEI out of California…who got me estimates within hours, provided answers to all my questions, setup phone conferences with Apace engineers and our IT company to help with deciding what periperhals to buy (switch, network cards etc.)
https://www.ieei.com/ieeibroadcast/vstor.shtml
I rarely…and I mean rarely tout a product, company or service…but after the frustration I experienced trying to get answers about shared storage, these guys are a breath of fresh air..and their stuff just plain works.
Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com -
Hey Chris,
(you said..)
I don’t know if you’re associated with Small Tree or not, but that’s my point. Apace has 4-6TB solutions that run under $10,000. Add a $800-$1000 switch and a few network cards and you can have an entry level system that works right out of the box along with great customer service for between $10-12,000.I do work for Small Tree (just to clarify — and I’ve only been public about it since we have our own forum here on the cow now https://forums.creativecow.net/smalltree)
(you said..)
I am NOT associated with Apace. I’m just a customer with 25 years in this business who’s seen countless computer, non-linear editing and storage companies tout products that don’t work the way they’re supposed to, or fail repeatedly. Apace’s products do exactly what they claim, they’re rock solid, and their customer service is excellent.I’ve also heard good things about them. I often talk about vendors that have good products.
When you consider the complexity of shared video editing, along with the demands placed on the hardware, and the need for 24/7 reliable performance, solutions like their’s just seem to be a no-brainer to me…especially considering their systems work with Avid, Final Cut and a whole host of other NLE systems, including Harris VelocityQ, Canopus Edius, Sony Vegas, and Adobe Premiere.This is very important when you choose a solution obviously is how it’s going to work for you and how it’s going to be supported after it’s installed. Very critical when you are in a production environment.
When we were researching systems, they were the ONLY company that provided me with a list of past clients to contact to get feedback. All of those companies (four of them) were using Final Cut. All had similar experiences to mine in terms of service as well.Apace was the only company that gave me a money back guarantee…in writing!
I also have to compliment the reseller we dealt with…IEEI out of California…who got me estimates within hours, provided answers to all my questions, setup phone conferences with Apace engineers and our IT company to help with deciding what periperhals to buy (switch, network cards etc.)
https://www.ieei.com/ieeibroadcast/vstor.shtml
I rarely…and I mean rarely tout a product, company or service…but after the frustration I experienced trying to get answers about shared storage, these guys are a breath of fresh air..and their stuff just plain works.
This is great!
I wish in your research, you’d look at Small Tree. Go ahead and shoot over to our forum and read about some of the GraniteSTOR solutions we’ve got.
Aside from that, I agree with you in the fact that references help sell and close. That’s why, Small Tree no qualms about giving our potential buyers real world users that have great success to talk to!
When a company like the guys at Small Tree have been engineering and designing real time shared storage solutions that are not only high bandwidth but very fast performing configurations, we understand where you come from and what you are saying.
Real Time engineering is what Small Tree engineers have been doing for the last 25 years from their times working with SGI, CRAY, and a few other places that deal in the same type of technology!
Good luck in your searches!
Keep Small Tree in your head as a valuable resource for Real Time Shared Storage solutions, which are OSX focused and Ethernet based networks!Matt Geier
Small Tree -
>Hi David –
>where did you get the driver for the Intel 4 port card from for your G5?The driver believe it or not is built into OSX server 10.5.6 and above. I’ve only tested up to 10.5.8 server, and have not tested with client version, but suspect the driver is also there.
Plug card in and it literally just works. I first tried with 10.5.3 or something like that and it definitely did not work, until we did an OS update. I think we got the 4 port card intel MT/1000 PCIX for something like $85 on ebay.>I am amazed that you wanted to build a budget system, yet you chose the most expensive switch,
>and a fibre array ! I am also amazed that you are able to get 3 streams of XDCam or ProRes422HQ
>without jumbo frames, as ethernet with an MTU of 1500 will max out at about 50Mb/sec !We already had the cisco switch in place, that’s why we used that. It’s a 48 port switch and there a lot of traffic going around as the switch is full, but we do not see any throughput issues on the file server to clients. We cannot switch to Jumbo currently as some legacy systems are not compatible. Yes I was pleasantly surprised to get 5-6 streams multicam of XDCAM EX, I tried 7 streams but I got dropped frames. So around 60-65MB/sec. We got a fibre array, because we wanted something that was hardware RAID based and separate from the computer (easy to move around), and also fibre incase we wanted to expand in the future to a SAN based solution. (We also had unused fibre cards already for the G5) I have nothing but good things to say about Enhance Technologies. The product has been rock solid and not one failed drive yet, We have just added a 2nd Ultrastor RS16 FS enclosure, and plan on using the SAS expansion chassis when we run out of space.
>Cisco won’t help anyone without a support contract – how did you get the Cisco working ?
>Did you know an IT guy that was Cisco certified ?We have a cisco CCIE who helps us out with switch configurations, he doesn’t come in often as the stuff just works once it’s all setup. I’ve tried playing with cisco myself and with the 100mb switches on ebay for around $50 now, it’s worth it to just get one to understand how it works. It’s basically linux command line, which definitely has a learning curve, but the online guides are very helpful. And it can be done by a non CCIE if you are willing to persevere. Read up on Etherchannel (cisco speak for trunking – use LACP Active for MAC compatible trunking) and VLAN.
>People ask me why I am on these forums so much – it is because of your excellent post (and others like it).
>Now, I have to try the G5 again, as I did not get the results you did.
>Please answer my questions above, and thanks for posting your results.Bob a big Thank you for sharing all your wisdom! Finding information about shared storage is very difficult especially when you’re doing it on a budget. These shared storage systems can cost so much, and if you want to it without an integrator, it can prove very expensive, especially if it doesn’t work. So a big thanks to BOB! Happy new year!
David 😀
By the way, about the Areca cards, be careful if you are using Seagate 1.5TB drives with them as not all firmware versions are supported, and my friend had issues once he updated the firmware. In the end he switched to WD drives. The seagate 1.5TB work fine in the ENHANCE enclosures with the built in RAID controllers.
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David Chai
Director . Camera . Editor
http://www.davidchai.com
dc@davidchai.com
212 363 0159 -
Bob Zelin writes:
People ask me why I am on these forums so much – it is because of your excellent post (and others like it).
>Now, I have to try the G5 again, as I did not get the results you did.
>Please answer my questions above, and thanks for posting your results.David Chai writes:
Bob a big Thank you for sharing all your wisdom! Finding information about shared storage is very difficult especially when you’re doing it on a budget. These shared storage systems can cost so much, and if you want to it without an integrator, it can prove very expensive, especially if it doesn’t work. So a big thanks to BOB! Happy new year!Bob Zelin responds:
the real thanks goes to CREATIVE COW. I originally heard about
ethernet based shared storage from Lance Bacheldor on the AJA Kona forum in March 2008. I researched it from there. Without Creative Cow, NONE OF US would have access to this information – or even know where to look for it. THANK YOU CREATIVE COW for allowing “the rest of us” to do stuff, that none of us thought was ever possible before. The ability to gain knowlege from Creative Cow is like nothing else in our industry.Happy New Year –
Bob Zelin -
Ghetto SAN day(s) is getting closer.
Thanks for the advice so far.Seem to have made the usual schoolboy errors.
Seagate Drives. Check.
Highpoint cards. Check.
G5. Check.But now on my way.
A small tree 6-port card arrives tomorrow.
Will order the chassis tomorrow. Probably the Enhance RS88.
Sending back the Highpoint 3522 and going for either the Areca 1680 or the ATTO R380.
Dunno if I can send back the seagate 1.5 tb’s.
So advice on which card is less likely to screw up would be great.This looks scary….
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/197/856578Big issue I have here is that there are very few integrators in the UK who are clued up about this stuff. So this forum has been really useful. I get all your comments about getting someone to do this for me, but it appears all of you are across the pond. Which makes it tricky for on-site tech support.
One further question. Is there anyone in the Seattle area who is clued up about this stuff? I may need to replicate this setup on location for a job there in February.
Plan is to get it working over here next weekend(s), wiki it all up, and then take some of the components out to Seattle, and set it all up again there.
Ah. The joys of flying raidsets transatlantic! Time to foam out the pelicases.
As you can imagine, this won’t be a mission-critical component of the job, just a nice bonus if it works. So… any Seattle area San dudes in the house?
Thanks all for the advice so far.
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Marcus, the Enhance RS88 has a built in RAID controller, so you don’t need to have a second one with an Areca or a Attotech. You can just use a SAS card like the LSI SAS 1068E which costs around $120. If you want to use the Areca or Attotech Raid controllers, then you can use the RS8 MS for around $756 or RS16 JS. Enhance has a compatibility matrix and includes seagate 1.5tb and also Attotech R380 and Areca 1680x. You can always contact them and ask if they have tested a config with the exact raid controller/drives/Raid level you are thinking of using. I have a friend who had issues with Areca and Seagate 1.5tb drives. Not sure if that issue has been resolved, may be worth contacting Areca to be sure.
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David Chai
Director . Camera . Editor
http://www.davidchai.com
dc@davidchai.com
212 363 0159 -
Thanks David, My typo. It was the Rs8ms.
Just got it delivered. But missed the courier for the Atto card. Damn!
Still, this means we’ll try with a Highpoint card and and 8 bay raid tomorrow, and then with the Atto next week. So we’ll have a speed comparison…Any suggestions on a good method to benchmark this?
I have 4 Mac Pros here I can test with for playback.
2 with Decklinks, One with a Kona, and one with nothing. -
Hi Marcus,
Welcome to the brave new world of DIY shared storage!
You can use the benchmark tools from AJA/Blackmagic, but nothing is better than the real thing. Copy some video files over to the new storage and then try to play them back on your multiple macpros simultaneously to get an idea of how much your server is going to take. Open the “activity monitor” application and look at the network throughput to see how much you are able to get to each machine. Also open up the same on your server and see what throughput it’s giving out.
If you are bonding (trunking) the ethernets (absolutely essential for the server, optional for the clients), take a look at small-tree article on how to do it correctly, link here: https://www.small-tree.com/kb_results.asp?ID=12 but the switch also has to be configured for that to work.
Let us know how it goes…
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David Chai
Director . Camera . Editor
http://www.davidchai.com
dc@davidchai.com
212 363 0159 -
Hi Marcus.
Not that scary 😉
The drive was on it’s way out and is now dead. These are 2 year old Seagate NS (enterprise) 500 gig drives that have served us well. Have taken a total hammering and were all due to be replaced anyway.
All drives inc server have been replaced with 2TB Hitachi Ultrastars…
Best of luck with the E-San 🙂
s
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