SAN Solution for Broadcast TV Station

[Bob Zelin]

You need a SAN system that will address the AVID .msm mediadata base files. Inexpensive systems that state they do this are Tiger Technology MetaSAN, and Apace vStor. Systems that absolutely do this come from EditShare and Facilis Terrablock.

My system will absolutely not work with AVID’s – MAC or otherwise, because of the .msm mediadatabase files created by each Media Composer workstation. Without some sort of metadata controller, you will simply erase these files, and wind up with “Media Offline” (I know, I tried it).

Bob Zelin

[Stefan Delanie]

Sorry Bob… wasn’t completely clear.

We are going away from Avid to a Mac Pro/FCP environment.

[Bob Zelin]

you write –
So whatever solution we arrive at would need to be able file transfer from the SAN (or whatever we end up with) into to our Omneon server over FTP or NFS on gigabit ethernet.

REPLY – I use AFP. Would it work with NFS ? I never tried it – it should work, but don’t take my word for it.

But I’d settle for an Apace vStor iSCSI or even the much discussed “Final Share” pseduo-SAN solution. Just whatever works. I think we have the money for something good so don’t put me into the “want it all for free” category of people. I also don’t want to build it myself, but I do want to understand what I’m getting and completely understand the design and be on-board with it prior to having it implemented.

REPLY – I have only set these systems up for POST PRODUCTION enviornments, not on air playback, or transfer to an Omneon server.
I cannot answer if this would or would not work.

As I alluded to, our Automation network subnet already exists. I didn’t think it would be wise to tack on the Editor SAN/network to that so I saw us maybe using a Small Tree L3 switch and routing between the networks whenever a ready-for-air Quicktime file was to be transfered into the Omneon.

REPLY – you want free information on this – you are kidding, right.
I certainly am not qualified, but if you think that someone is going to research this for you, without paying them as a consultant, you are dreaming. Turnkey solutions exist, but you want one of these economy solutions. The only way to see if this would work is to try it. You can try it right now, before buying anything – take a MAC with one ethernet port, and dump .mov files onto your Omneon. Does it work ?

I would welcome any critques of this draft, but I’m especially interested in some recommendations on what to do about a SAN. Again — I know I want a SOLUTION which means getting it integrated by pros, but prior to starting that process I wanted to see what some experts here think might work best for the situation I’ve described. We probably have between $20,000 and $30,000 to spend on the SAN portion. I estimate each editing Mac Pro will be $10,000 (HW & Software.) I have also allowed for needing a server Mac to run the MetaSAN. Money is a high priority so I don’t want to give the impression we are filthy rich because we aren’t. (In fact, I may be overestimating our budget somewhat.) But we are committed to doing this right which is why I’m working hard to get educated more.

REPLY –
the number one thing you need is an ENGINEER who understands what you want to do. I am not this person. Why don’t you call Omneon, and tell them that you have an Apple AFP storage solution, and you want to transfer these .mov files over an AFP network into the Omneon. See what they say. My guess – they are not willing to reinvent the wheel. They probably have a solution that they currently work with. The cost of your MAC Pro, the cost of MetaSAN, the cost of the drive storage – this is all nothing. It’s the cost of the ENGINEERING LABOR to make this happen with your Omneon. And I an not that guy.

Bob Zelin

[Stefan Delanie]

I don’t expect to get very far as a new user on a forum where you are well established and respected by everyone (including me) but… Do you read the things people post or do you just scan for hooks to start grinding an axe? Because this is the second time you’ve wrote back saying things I already directly addressed in my OP. It’s not that I don’t appreciate the effort, but based on what you’ve said I just wondered why you even bothered.

I Wrote: “Again — I know I want a SOLUTION which means getting it integrated by pros, but prior to starting that process I wanted to see what some experts here think might work best for the situation I’ve described.”

I know I will need an engineer and a solution. I was merely asking based on existing information I gave what a SAN in a $20,000 to $30,000 range sounded *plausible* for the situation I described. I’m not trying to get something real for free (except maybe some informal suggestions here.) If you add up the money I talked about spending in the OP, it’s close to $75,000… (which may be the equivalent of trying to get something for free in the broadcast world, idk.) I’m in the information gathering phase of my project and am just filling in some holes in my knowledge prior to engaging the type people you speak of.

So: Can’t Answer, Can’t Answer, Can’t Answer, and Get a Pro? I honestly didn’t expect you to answer if you didn’t have anything to add. Of course, I would certainly have welcomed it had you known.

Thanks for taking the time to address me on this issue, though.

[Matt Geier]

Stefan,

I’ve read through the thread.

When someone yells at Bob, I’m always inclined to chime in. 🙂

In Bob’s defense though, he has to start grinding the axe right away because if he doesn’t people think this is trivial, and it’s not. What will happen is someone else (with even less knowledge then yourself perhaps) will come across this forum or another one and start thinking they have all the right pieces of the puzzle, and they don’t. That’s all he’s getting at. Plus, time and time again, people show up expecting all the answers when they should be talking to experts expecting to work with a budget. 🙂 – It’s nothing personal I’m sure…

Onward to your problem … (I’m from Small Tree – Most here on the SAN Forum see my name and know who I am)

A Mac network can move files to and from AFP, and NFS.

iSCSI is not ready for Video Editing in Real Time. There’s just too much latency with iSCSI protocol to successfully edit under real time conditions. I/O’s cannot be moved fast enough.

In addition to what you’ve layed out here, there are some other things that need to be figured into the grand scheme. I’d like to talk to you to understand what some of those other requirements are. In addition, I’d like to know the exact Omneon model you have.

Give me a call when you can.

651-209-6509 x 1
(Small Tree)

Matt G.

[Bob Zelin]

Stefan writes –
“I don’t expect to get very far as a new user on a forum where you are well established and respected by everyone (including me) but… Do you read the things people post or do you just scan for hooks to start grinding an axe? Because this is the second time you’ve wrote back saying things I already directly addressed in my OP. It’s not that I don’t appreciate the effort, but based on what you’ve said I just wondered why you even bothered.

I Wrote: “Again — I know I want a SOLUTION which means getting it integrated by pros, but prior to starting that process I wanted to see what some experts here think might work best for the situation I’ve described.”

REPLY –
I guess you want a nice answer. Well, there is no nice answers. NO ONE will have the answer – NO EXPERT will have the answer until you try tying into your Omneon. This means that your TV station will SPEND MONEY to try it out, and it may FAIL.

We have a client (well known on Creative Cow) that is trying out this simple, non storage product with our simple ethernet based system. It is NOT a storage device, but an ethernet connected control surface for color correction –

https://www.jlcooper.com/pages/eclipse.html

gee – what could go wrong ? It’s just a control surface. WELL, it’s crashing the entire SAN system. NO EXPERT knows the answer until you plug it in and see what happens, and sees what conflicts there are. This means, that you are certainly welcome and encouraged to try this type of solution, but you want to tie into an Omneon playout server. Will it work ? Who knows – the only person that will know is Omneon, and they won’t really know with a third party product until you try it. I am trying to be helpful, and you are getting offended, because I am telling you that your bosses WILL NOT LIKE SPENDING MONEY, if this “trial” doesn’t work.

I bitch like this because I work with new products every single day, and half of them don’t work. But they are supposed to work, and the manufacturers think that I am an idiot. And then they ask my system configuration, and they say “well, of course, you should be using X Y and Z, not A, B and C”. This recently applied to us building our SAN system with Seagate drives. When we called the vendors to complain (your stuff doesn’t work), they said “what is wrong with you – why are you using Seagate drives”.

so thinking that a “cool inexpensive solution” is going to seemlessly integrate with your Omneon – well, it’s just foolish. It might work – it should work, but I don’t know – and no one will know until they try it.

My advice, once again – call Omneon.

Bob Zelin

[Jeff Bernstein]

Stefan,

If you want to integrate your Omneon into your workflow, you will need certain options for that integration from Omneon. You will need to know what your “house codec” is going to be. What tape format are you currently using?

From there, you can then make a plan with an integrator. We do it all the time.

Jeff Bernstein
Digital Desktop Consulting
323-653-7611

[Chris Blair]

I can add some personal experience to the point Bob’s trying to make. When we moved to shared storage (via an Apace vStor) about 15 months ago, there was no shortage of people telling me what we were trying to do wouldn’t work.

They included: our IT vendor, some people on these lists, scores of people in the SAN/NAS shared video storage industry, and even an employee on-staff, who simply didn’t believe we could edit multiple channels of broadcast quality video in real-time across multiple edit workstations across Gig-E.

I did months of research and made dozens of phone calls and sent scores of emails. After I finally settled on a choice, I had 2 phone conferences with Apace and their engineering staff, along with their system reseller and our IT company to help coordinate all the pieces of the puzzle, from the correct managed switch to cabling configurations to software configuration, setup and backups.

But…until we got it in the door, got it all installed and were ablt to actually use it, I didn’t know if it would actually work. The only gurantee I had was that Apace agreed to take the NAS server and drives back and give me a full refund less shipping if it didn’t work. Nobody else would give me that guarantee. Not EditShare, not Studio Network Solutions, not Facilis Terrablock.

Most of the other companies wouldn’t even test their systems internally with out editing platform, the Harris VelocityQ, in order to give us an idea if their solution would be compatible with it. This was after I found VelocityQ owners right in the home city of the above companies (one literally down the street).

So while I had the money-back guarantee from Apace (in writing), I still spent another $6000 on hardware, backups, installation etc. that I could not get back if it didn’t work.

Luckily, I had done my homework and asked enough questions and gotten enough answers to feel pretty confident it would work. But I was extremely relieved when after hooking it all up…it DID indeed work. And I’ve been even more relieved that it’s worked flawlessly from day one. We haven’t had a second of downtime since….as opposed to almost weekly drive issues when using direct attached SCSI hooked to the VelocityQ’s on-board SCSI controller.

So what Bob is saying is that if you’re designing something that hasn’t been done EXACTLY the same way you’re doing it. There is literally no guarantee it will all work. The smallest conflict, the most innocuous configuration gaffe can cause a shared video editing storage system to grind to a halt. All you can do is the put in the research, understand what you need to make it work, and find somebody to either help you design it, or at the very least confirm that your design should work.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com

[Yuval Dimnik]

Hi Stefan.

I’m no expert.
The more questions you’ll be required to answer, the more solid it will be as a plan and as a solution.

For evey component of your workflow:
What is the OS/SW comonly used/needed storage capacity/Performance needs? Which components transfer data to other components and how?

This will get you to define what you really need from the solution in terms of: Aggregated performance, capacty, protocols, functionality, stability, $ and their priority.

Loved your diagram though it somewhat confused me :p.

Yuval

p.s.
I know a UK TV station that sounds similiar. They use Omneon as well but use it over NAS which they used directly with other clietns. I can try and get you a technical contact if you’re interested and he approves of course.