SAN advice needed

[Chuck Mcmakin]

Hi Alex.

As it seems you are aware, there are several possible ways to share storage for a post workflow, all with differing features, benefits and challenges.

Here at JMR we typically begin our discussions with any new clients by making sure we understand our client’s expectations and requirements when it comes to “sharing”. The differences between just being able to access and quickly copy over footage to a local workstation as needed versus accessing the same footage for multiple editors in real time can amount to big differences in your ultimate equipment and software costs.

JMR’s solutions are designed with an open systems approach. We recommend using caution when considering offerings from some vendors which will “lock you in” with their hardware. If expanding the storage requires you to go back to that same vendor, you may seriously regret that purchase down the road…

If performance is an issue (and with HD workflows, it usually is), you will most likely find that fibre infrastructure offers one of the better values today. JMR’s fibre based storage (we call it the BlueStor FibreStream) even offers a built-in 4-port fibre switch, which sounds perfect for your near term needs.

Please feel free to contact us any time if you would like to discuss your situation further. We are always happy to talk with you about how we can help you optimize your workflow!

Chuck McMakin
JMR Electronics, Inc. /
Phone: (818) 993-4801 x136 /
Email: chuckm@jmr.com

[Chris Blair]

Alex Neuman:
my IT knowledge is none, integration systems none, I think I can cut more or less ;)……my small shop I can not afford high maintenance costs…..Smoke on a mac (it will be doing uncompressed HD)…, I am now having feelings for Facilis with their new, File, based, Volume based workflow (although I don’t know what that means, ha ha)

No offense…but if youre IT knowledge is “none,” you’re in for some long days and big headaches. I’d suggest you either bone up on networking in general and video sharing specifically in a hurry…especially if you cannot afford high maintenance costs.

Uncompressed HD requires anywhere from 105 to 237MB/sec depending on the pixel resolution, bit-depth and frame rate.

https://www.blackmagic-design.com/support/detail.asp?techID=30

So you’d need at a minimum 10GB ethernet to support that, and likely FC for faster read/write access. 10GB can do it, but those systems are just now starting to actually get installed in facilities, so it’s not as mature as GB ethernet and Fibre. GB ethernet cannot do uncompressed HD.

If you don’t know the difference between file based sharing and volume based sharing, it’s pretty important. To do what your describe (have assets available to all editors all the time), you’d want file based sharing. Volume based sharing is typical in Fibre Channel setups, where if memory serves me, you have to assign a volume to an edit station for it to access it, and other edit stations cannot write to that volume while it’s being worked with. I’m not even sure if the other stations can read from it until they’re given access, but I could be wrong on that. There is file sharing software that can give file sharing to SAN systems, but it’s expensive and is seemingly becoming obsolete with the emergence of 10GB ethernet.

For backup, you need more than just a Raid 5 or Raid 6. If they failed, you’d have to rebuild the entire array, which means sinificant downtime if you have a big raid, which you will certainly have doing uncompressed HD. If 2 disks fail in Raid 5, you’re hosed. So I’d look at LaCie’s rack-mount ethernet disks. They’re built like tanks, are reliable, and are relatively inexpensive. Plust LaCie has great customer support. Those drives aren’t fast, but you don’t need speed to backup. You can also add volumes to them by just buying another LaCie drive (rack-mount or desktop external) and just plugging it in via USB or e-SATA. You go into their web-based admin page, name the volume, and instantly you have terabytes of additional backup that shows up as a volume or folder to your system.

We use Second Copy software to backup all project, audio and video files each night. It’s never crashed (ever), never messed up a file, and never failed to run. It costs $29 per license and it’s the best bargain on the planet. It backs up your files without compression, so when you restore, you just drag and drop your files onto your shared storage array. Boom…done. Much simpler and faster than traditional backup software. You can use compression with Second Copy but it’s a waste of time and it doesn’t make a video or audio file hardly any smaller anyway. Same with big graphic files, it might make them 20% smaller at best.

I’m not trying to be a jerk…but if you don’t have technical computer skills and knowledge, you better find somebody to help you who does. While this stuff has gotten easier, there is still a lot of assigning of IP addresses, setting DNS and Gateways etc. I’ve been doing it (IT stuff) for 14 years as a facility owner and I’m still a complete idiot compared to IT people that do it full-time. But I can diagnose and fix IP issues, hard drive issues, and fix a screwed up computer or drive array etc…and believe me, it’s REQUIRED.

Good Luck and we’re here to help, so don’t get discouraged. But you’ll need to do some homework on your end to get a system that will do what you want and won’t require a lot of babysitting.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com

[Bob Zelin]

Hi Alex,
my replies below, but the G5 is an old computer. You probably have a MAC Pro, not a G5, and don’t say “oh big deal” – because it is a big deal -it’s your money, and every mistake you make like this can cost you money.

You want a cheap system to get started, but you want it to grow. A system that can grow can potentially be more expensive than you want to spend right now. JMR makes a fantastic product, with drive arrays that run at 1200Mb/sec – you only need 300Mb/sec to do your uncompressed HD Smoke files (2K DPX is 292Mb/sec) – so the JMR will be teriffic for you for this – IF you want to spend the money for it. When you buy the JMR, you will need their wonderful drive chassis which has 4 fibre channel ports on it. this will allow you to hookup four Fibre clients, which means that you have to have four fibre channel cards in your MAC’s (and you can’t plug in your Mac Book Pro’s to fibre), and four seats of Command Soft Fibre Jet software (about $995 each) to get the four computers to work on this wonderful system. And you will need eight fibre transceivers (SFP adaptors) that will go from the fibre ports on the fibre cards in the MAC’s to the four fibre ports on the JMR box. And now, you are ready for your two Smoke systems on MAC, and another two MAC Pro computers.

But wait – you say you don’t want to spend so much money ? Well, you can get some cheap piece of junk like the Maxx Digital Final Share system right now, for about 1/3 rd the cost, that has no software licenses (it just uses Apple file sharing), and the Small Tree hardware. You can hookup your two MAC Laptops and your G5 (MAC Pro) and 7 more computers, and they can all be running ProRes422HQ (and even ProRes4444), but it’s just NOT fast enough for uncompressed HD and 2K files from Smoke on MAC – so I guess this wont’ work for you. At NAB, we showed this working with 10 Gig ethernet, but because of the slow 600Mb/sec drive arrays, we can only get 2 Smokes to work, but there is no more speed for the rest of the system. When 6 Gig drives come out, you can then have a 4 port or 6 port 10Gig card, that will work wonderfully, all with simple 10Gig ethernet cables (and no switch), and a drive running at 2200Mb/sec with 6 gig drives will do your 2 smoke clients all day long, along with your regular MACs, but the cheapo Final Share will NOT do this now – not all these systems. So if you need it RIGHT NOW, and you want to be ready for Smoke RIGHT NOW, and you have the money, the JMR is your best bet solution. You can also get the JMR split buss chassis without the Faststream Fibre stuff inside it, and still have a monster drive array with two SAS/SATA host adaptor cards that will run at a blazing fast 1200Mb/sec, so you don’t have to be “stuck” with fibre. Then do the Small Tree stuff for now. Those JMR chassis are great – fibre or not. It’s up to you – it depends on how much you want to spend.

I am based in Dallas, I have worked in the past at shops where they used X-serve and X-Raid and we constantly had all sorts of problems, we called several local IT guys and they all had different answers to the problems, but problems continued none the less, so in this town it’s fair to say we don’t have a strong X-Serve X-Raid maintenance, not to mention in my small shop I can not afford high maintenance costs.

REPLY
Voyager Expanded Learning in Dallas has Final Share. Why don’t you give them a call and see how they find working with it ? You will find that running Command Soft fibrejet with JMR hardware (or Final Share that uses Apple File Sharing) is MUCH easier than all that XServe XRAID stuff.

I am now having feelings for Facilis with their new, File, based, Volume based workflow (although I don’t know what that means, ha ha)

REPLY –
Facilis is a great company. You must weigh the price of these products as to what you need. Volume based workflow means that only one guy can write to a drive volume at one time, but everyone can read from it. So if you only purchase one drive volume (or have it partitioned as one volume), only one guy can WRITE files to the shared drive volume at one time. I believe that Command Soft Fibre Jet is Volume based as well, but MetaSAN, XSAN, and Apple File Sharing are all file based.

You are lucky that there are such wonderful companies that are represented here on Creative Cow. JMR, Cal Digit, Tiger Technology, EditShare, XSAN, Maxx Final Share, Small Tree Granite Stor, Apace Systems, Active Storage, Studio Network Solutions all have wonderful solutions – it’s up to you , and your budget to determine what is right for you, and how technical you want to get. The more you want, the more it will cost. As long as you don’t wind up with some $600 NAS from Newegg, and expect it to perform like one of the systems I have listed above for you.

Bob Zelin

[Alex Neuman]

Thanks a lot to all who responded you opened my eyes to new systems I had heard of but had not researched.
I am totally aware of my IT limitations so I am looking for a person to help me in the process regardless of what system I go with. I will do my homework now, contact these vendors and judge what is the best option for my initial SAN.
I am sure I will have more questions soon, I really appreciate your help, guidance and sharing your expertise, I wish you all well.

I’ll be back!

Alex Neuman

Alex N.

[Alex Neuman]

Chris:

Are the Lacie Ethernet disks and Second Copy Software Mac friendly?

Thanks,

Alex N.

Alex N.

[Mark Raudonis]

[Alex Neuman] ” am looking for a person to help me in the process regardless of what system I go with. “

You already found him! His name is Bob Zelin, and you should hire him! He just gave you a
“freebie”, now man up and pay him.

Mark

[Alex Neuman]

Mark:

I find your comment rude.

Did you check Bob’s website?
This is what he writes:

Consulting
Consultants talk about stuff, contractors actually do stuff.

We are contractors — we actually install the equipment, and make it work.

If you need consulting, we will consult with you for free. Talk is cheap.

Alex Neuman

Alex N.

[Bob Zelin]

Hi Alex,
if you find Mark’s comment “rude”, then

A) you don’t know me yet – and
B) you want rude – wait until you choose a vendor that only wants your money, and doesn’t give a crap if your system works or not – then you will find out what RUDE really means.

Bob Zelin

ps – after all the advice, and after all the wonderful threads on the SAN networks forum, with all the great vendors that participate here, you must be kidding if you are even considering doing real work with the Lacie ethernet drive as a shared volume.

[Chris Blair]

LaCie disks definitely are. Not sure about Second Copy, but don’t think so. Surely there’s a Mac equivalent in terms of a simple backup solution that doesn’t require an IT degree to figure out how it works (like Dantz Retrospect, which sucks and is Mac friendly if you can call it that).

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com

[Chris Blair]

He’s talking about using the LaCie ethernet device as a backup device…not as shared storage for editing. That’s what we use for backup of our Apace vStor shared storage system and I simply suggested it as an option in my reply. It works great and is priced right if you’re on a budget. If you have more budget, then certainly there are other more robust backup solutions, but we’ve used LaCie drives for backups for 3 years now and they just plain work…and their customer service is outstanding.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com