-
Rode NTG4 mic driving me nuts… Anyone know how to get decent sound out of it?
-
I got that idea of shotgun proximity from years of shooting cinema verite with two-person crews, mostly with a Sennheiser and Nagra. At 60 cm I would use a good cardioid mic, not a shotgun. But that’s just me. 60 cm sounds like a set-up shot for closeup or minimal headroom. I would actually try to use a lavalier for a set-up shot with no one moving around.
Robert Withers
Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City
-
Hi Ty,
I was thinking that the mic would pick up some sort of usable audio when sat at the top of the camera. I see that in so many videos… I see people with a lesser mic (rode mic pro) with a mini jack, into a DSLR and they seem to get quite good audio. I bought an NTG4 Pro thinking it would blast the crap out of the Rode mic pro, and the signal is weaker than an anaemic kitten.
The -10Db padding isn’t on, but it certainly sounds like it is.
Thanks for all your help.
-
So just to be clear, a shotgun mic is only useful at shorter distances (i.e. just out of frame), otherwise it’s lav mic all the way? A meter is too far for the shotgun mic to work.
The Rode NTG4+ works absolutely fine when I hold and use it like a stick mic – but obviously I want to put it on a boom.
I just got my wires crossed on what this thing can do.
-
[Phil Parkinson] “So just to be clear, a shotgun mic is only useful at shorter distances (i.e. just out of frame), otherwise it’s lav mic all the way? A meter is too far for the shotgun mic to work.”
It depends on what you are trying to do. If you’re trying to capture dialog, for example a movie actor, or a sit down interview, then a shotgun mic at 1m is IMHO generally too far away. Being this far away lessens the level of the signal (actor talking), and therefore lessens the signal to noise ratio, so you end up with more ambient sound in your dialog capture, and if your mic preamps are noisy, more preamp noise in your capture also. If you want “good crisp dialog” and nothing else, that’s what the “close as you can get and still be just out of the frame” distance (45-60cm) is for.
That said, if you’re recording ambient sounds like birds, traffic, whatever, you can certainly do that with shotgun mics, and at quite a distance too. People often use shotguns at sporting events to capture crowd sounds for example. I’ve read of one guy using a pair of shotguns, widely spaced (he wrote something on the order of “about the width of a normal flatscreen TV” IIRC), the pair pointed at the stands, to pick up stereo ambient crowd noise at football games. He swore by the technique. I’ve never tried it however.
-
Phil, If you want a real flame thrower for a shotgun try this.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum LeaderWant better production audio?: Ty Ford\’s Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford\’s Blog -
Not trying to ride a hobbyhorse here, but many of the giants of cinema-verite and direct cinema, and others working in that field, regularly used the Sennheiser 816 shotgun for a majority of shooting. (That mic was itself about 3 feet long.) Pennebaker, the Maysles, and successors like Barbara Kopple, etc. Regularly at 3-6 feet distance. You can still see those films today.
It sounds like you are talking about current use of some kind of shotgun (which mics?) on controlled sets or locations with interviews or scripted films, in shots with little or no head room. Yes it depends on what you are trying to do. And I have no experience with the Rode NTG4. If I could get that close on a quiet set I would think about using a good cardioid mic for more pleasing sound. Cardioid mics are in some ways more directional than shotguns if you compare frequencies across the pick-up pattern.
Robert Withers
Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City
-
Robert, et al,
Yes, the 816 is a long shotgun used in film.
However, it’s choice, is predicated on a quiet set and specific acoustic properties of the location, not run and gun.
Bad choice or run and gun and its length makes it unwieldy.
Regards,
Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum LeaderWant better production audio?: Ty Ford\’s Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford\’s Blog -
To Ty, et Ty, and apologies to Phil who started this thread with an ask for help. Sorry, I’m having a lizard brain response here.
Yes, I have been using the Sennheiser 816 for over 40 years. Sorry, can’t accept these condescending suggestions that imply I’m some kind of newbie. Though I’m always willing to learn new tricks.
Yes, I was using the 816 in the 1960s and 1970s on location shoots with Pennebaker and other giants of CINEMA-VERITE and DIRECT CINEMA. That was our philosophy, our style, and our microphone. This was an extremely common mic for many documentary shooters, and is still in use today.
The phrase “run and gun” hadn’t even been invented then, though it’s become popular in recent decades for a certain kind of journeyman documentary/news shooting.
Ty, you know what you know and others of us know what we know. We used the 816 daily and commonly because it was the best choice for the job we were doing, which was not a “quiet set” and not “run and gun.” We shot with film cameras, Auricons, Eclairs, CP-16s and Arris, with two person crews, a cameraperson and a soundperson who carried a Nagra and usually an 816.
Please revisit some the landmark films of the era, such as Drew Associates’ “Primary” and the Maysles’ “Salesman” to see results. It would be also interesting to look at “making of” films of the era (eg, the making of Slaughterhouse Five or Apocalypse Now where you can see the 816 boomed over locations in its characteristic 3′ blimp windshield. I have a poster of a Godard film with the sound person wielding the 3′ blimp.
Ty, it would be interesting for you to offer your recommendations for current models of effective shotgun mics instead of insisting on what generic shotgun mics and the proven 816 can’t be used for. What mics would you use for cinema-verite? Lavaliers became useful choices to add to the shotgun approach. Either with mini-recorders or more recently with wireless. I’ve recently had success with a Rode lavalier with an iphone for some recent shoots.
Like they say, it’s all about what you want to do, and how you choose among best available tools. Horses for courses. Please share your knowledge about specific good options — let’s dispense with conventional wisdom. I’d really be interested in your experience with recording sound in the cinema-verite context.
Robert Withers
Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City
-
Dear Robert,
You throw down a “gauntlet suggestion” that we bare our respective mic lockers and resumes to the world. That’s wholly provocative and not what this forum is about. It’s about helping people. You are attempting to hijack this thread. I suggest you take your energy to rec.audio.opinion, rec.audio.pro or rec.arts.movies.production.sound. They like that sort of confrontational approach.
Sorry if you felt talked down to. I assure you, there was absolutely no condescension in my reply. Again, that is not what this forum is about. It’s about helping people. Look through my posts for condescension. You won’t find it.
You are absolutely correct. Your post is a lizard brain response. Not the best approach here.
Please continue to use your 816 , Nagra and iPhone, as you wish. I also own an 816 (not the MKH 815, its predecessor) and a full track mono Nagra. My 816 is the original model with point to point soldering, not the later SMT version. The 816 is not indicated for Phil’s work. He has a Rode that may have a problem or is a bad match for his application. Sending him off to buy an 816 is not the best approach, especially if he ever intends to mount it on a camera.
If you’d like to ask a specific question, why not start a new thread instead of hijacking this one?
Best Personal Regards,
Ty Ford
Cow Audio Forum LeaderWant better production audio?: Ty Ford\’s Audio Bootcamp Field Guide
Ty Ford Blog: Ty Ford\’s Blog -
Sorry. Keep up the good work.
Robert Withers
Independent/personal/avant-garde cinema, New York City
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up