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Really? No One Has Seen this?
We have 720p 60 DVCProHD footage that looks pretty good. A little over exposed and white balance a tad off, but detail is pretty good. On both our Aurora Pipe systems and the Kona 3, if we create a DVCPro50 sequence and bring in the clips, it inevitably softens the footage and has a slight color shoft….seems to add a bit of yellow.
I took the 720p clip into AE and dropped it into a 720 x 480 comp and rendered out a DVCPro50 clip. Maybe a bit less softening, but still can’t nail down the color space. Getting nominal gamma shifting. Tried multiple project color space and clip color management options….same results.
Anyone else bringing 720p 60 footage into standard def sequences or in AE comps and having success retaining full detail and gamma? The softening in FCP between the raw clip in the source window (viewed on either a CRT or an LCD) and the clip in the sequence after scaling down and rendering is quite noticeable and unacceptable. Just can’t find the right combination to keep detail.
We are currently cutting in DVCProHD, which looks same as source in the sequence, however it will eventually end up as a TV spot, letterboxed, but the client was hoping that the extra resolution of the 720p material would allow some scaling of shots in FCP within a letterbox area. We thought so too, but now we are seeing the softening. Also, they have typically gone to a full 4×3 full screen end tag after the letterbox footage, so cutting entirely in 720p and simply letting the deck downconvert to the Beta Station dubs sounds good up until the end frame, and not allowing us to pan and scan around any of the clips under the letterbox in an SD frame.
Thoughts?
BTW, we have looked at this footage on FCP systems with Kona 3 and QT 7.4 as well as a FCP system with no card with QT 7.5.5 and the Aurora Pipe system with FCP 6.0.4 and QT 7.4. Same results on all systems.
My assumption is that FCP is pretty awful at scaling 720p footage in an SD sequence (we tried 10 bit uncompressed etc as well with same results) and AE is still having trouble with gamma when mixing HD clips and rendering out to SD codecs.
Thoughts?
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media -
28 Replies
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And to clarify, the main issue here is that when we drag a 720p DVCProHD clip into a SD sequence of any codec it adds quite a bit of softness with the scaling. However, even if we leave the clip at 100% scaling in the SD sequence we still get the softening. I reread my orig post and it might have sounded like an AE question. The issue is FCP softening a 720p clip when dropped into an SD timeline.
Can’t believe no one has come across this.
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media -
The softening is most likely coming from the interlacing of a progressive image. We use our Kona 3’s to do all downconversions. FCP has always had terrible scaling, we never use it for that.
If we have 720 material already on the systems from a digital source like a P2, we’ll lay it off to DVCPro HD tape on our Panasonic 1400’s and recapture it into the systems at 8bit SD Uncompressed letting the Kona 3 do the downconvert.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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[walter biscardi] “The softening is most likely coming from the interlacing of a progressive image.”
This is the reason here. If you change you sequence to ‘none’ field rendering, it should clear up.
Jeremy
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Thanks guys. Changing to no fields in the sequence helped a little but we still lose some crispness and there is a noticeable color shift…it’s like we lose some yellow. Better though.
I pitched the idea of redigitizing from the tapes we made, but it’s the convenience of using the media already on the drives that won the day.
Again, another gripe that FCP is not all that “pro”. But affordable.
Can we get the algorithm team on this one…
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media -
Have you tried the Adv Format Conversion in Compressor? I think the scaling is much better.
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[Rich Rubasch] “Thanks guys. Changing to no fields in the sequence helped a little but we still lose some crispness and there is a noticeable color shift…it’s like we lose some yellow.”
You do realize that you’re going from 709 to 601, correct? There’s going to be some loss of color overall. SD is not HD. Also, try ProRes instead of dv50.
Jeremy
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[Rich Rubasch] “Again, another gripe that FCP is not all that “pro”. But affordable.
Can we get the algorithm team on this one… “
Just add an AJA product. They perform flawless downconverts and well worth the price.
I find this another example of FCP being affordable and scaleable to suit the individual needs of the end users. If you need a higher quality downconvert, there are products on the market that do this and in the case of AJA, do them in realtime.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Biscardi Creative Media
HD and SD Production for Broadcast and Independent Productions.STOP STARING AND START GRADING WITH APPLE COLOR Apple Color Training DVD available now!
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Was the original DVCProHD footage shot with a HVX series camera or a broadcast camera such as the Varicam or the newer P2 full resolution 2/3″ cameras?
The chip specs on the HVX200 make it quite low resolution, possibly why Panasonic can obtain the 4.2.2 colour space.Cinematographer, Steadicam Operator, Final Cut Pro Post Production.
https://www.steadi-onfilms.com.au/ -
Compressor does a good job with this if you turn on the Frame Controls and set the scaling to better or best.
As for this being an indicator of FCP not being pro…I am sitting in front of a Symphony Nitris right now, and I can attest to the fact that it can’t do this well either
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I don’t know Walter….not a real solution. The idea is that you can bring in 720p60 footage into an SD timeline and have the luxury of pan and scan on the footage. Any kind of downconvert locks you into the SD frame size.
It also reveals a significant flaw in the basic FCP hardware/software structure that scaling footage on the timeline is a pretty crappy proposition and not exactly “pro” if we are talking broadcast quality.
We sell the fact that we can take HD footage and move it around in an SD frame….I have found that even AE is not great at interpolating it. Now, admittedly, the advanced conversion to 10bit uncompressed was a very acceptable result in the end, but did not allow us to pan and scan around the clip…it was simply anamorphic. Good enough I suppose, but I have to tiptoe back out of my original proposal of being able to zoom in and out of shots on the timeline as needed. Perhaps this technique works better with 1080i footage where you have even more resolution to start with.
Also changing the SD sequence to “None” for fields helped 720p footage dropped into it, but it still resulted in significant ghosting around detail areas, but was an improvement.
I am going to upload the same clip from the DVCProHD tape we made in various flavors and see what that looks like.
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media
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