P2 Clips are 23.98

[Bob Zelin]

Hi –
I was just made aware of this post, as I do not participate on the P2 forum.

I in fact DID say to never ever work in 23.98 unless absolutely necessary. Because of P2, the rules change. Most people have to intermix footage (archive 29.97 upconverted footage, for example), and most people have to deliver at 59.94 or 29.97, so if you are working with HDCam, DVCProHD, and conventional Digi Beta and Beta footage, there is no reason to have to attempt to lock your system to 23.98 tri level sync, when it is SO MUCH EASIER to work at 59.94, ESPECIALLY when you have to deliver at normal frame rate, or dub out to Digi Beta or Beta masters at 29.97.

Products like the AJA Kona 3 (for example) allow you to change the PLAYBACK output to 1080i 29.97 (for example) to allow you to do a software pulldown of your 23.98 project (if you have to make Digi Beta dubs, for example). However, if you are working with MIXED FOOTAGE (which almost all projects are in the real world), working at 23.98 is a PAIN IN THE ASS. The people that disagree with this are in the feature film business. If this was not the case, why would people buy 2:3 pulldown options for all their Sony VTR’s.

Of course, this becomes a big issue with P2 which is native 23.98. So here you work at 23.98, and you use the PLAYBACK 29.97 pulldown function (in the AJA for example).

SO, why not work in 23.98 ALL THE TIME – because MOST FOOTAGE IS NOT 23.98 NATIVE, and you have to intermix Digi Beta, Beta, 1080i 29.97 footage ALL THE TIME with 23.98 native footage, and this is A PAIN IN THE ASS, and puts you in render hell. If you have the LUXURY of a TV show that is shot native 23.98, and all your footage is 23.98 (like P2), this is great. And if you have modern boards (like the Kona 3) that allow you to do the pulldown, so you can make a dub, or even see it on your NTSC TV monitor (that cannot display 23.98), this is great. But MOST PEOPLE don’t have this luxury. MOST PEOPLE WORK AND DELIVER IN NORMAL FRAME RATES, and THE ONLY people that work at 23.98 all the time are hi end houses that have delivery requirements of 23.98 HD masters.

This stupid conversation reminds me of the EARLY DAYS of SDI Video (linear days), where the HI END film houses transfered everything to Sony D1 VTR’s at 100 % IRE. There was no ability to monitor on standard monitors, and the original Tektronix SDI scopes (the original WFM-601) didn’t even have graticule markings for 77 IRE (75 % bars for Pb and Pr). THIS WAS NUTS, because EVERYONE had BETA and 1″ TAPES that they had to use. And EVERYONE had to convert the D1 tapes to analog to deliver to a TV station. The SMPTE 259M standards did not reflect REAL LIFE. And neither does current 23.98 workflow for MOST USERS.

SO, if you are working with P2, you work at 23.98. What else are you working with ? Sony HDW-1800 HD Cam ? – better buy
an AJA GEN10 tri level sync gen? Working with DVD and Beta and Digi Beta sources too? Better be ready to RENDER YOUR ASS OFF.

I work with all kinds of users – both hi end, and low end. I know exactly what each type of user wants to do – and I just try to make suggestions for each type of user. The generic corporate video guy doesn’t need to work at 23.98, but if he has P2 sources, it’s another story.

Bob Zelin

[Bob Zelin]

Noah writes –
Nearly every movie and TV show currently in production posts at 23.98. If you need to add a pulldown you can easily do it at the end of post-production and with a deck or output card.

REPLY –
According to a recent post from Mike Most, “almost every TV show currently in post production is still done in a linear room”.

I love this stuff.
Damn, if I shot the entire show at 23.98, and all my camera masters were at 23.98, and had a 23.98 delivery requirement on SRW-5500, I’d work at 23.98 too ! Aaah, to work in LA with the big boys.

Bob Zelin

[Rich Rubasch]

So Bob sort of confirms that other than having the card do the conversion on output, or to digitize it that way off a tape and let the deck or card do it, there is no easy way to take P2 clips on a hard drive that are 23.98 and make them work in a 29.97 workflow…other than to string them onto a sequence and output them to tape, and then redigitize them in the format that works for us.

WHICH IS 29.97, THANK YOU VERY MUCH!

Sorry, had to get that off my chest, for all you 23.98 ers out there.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media

[Bob Zelin]

the die hard 23.98 boys are the boys with the big projects, and the big budgets (feature films, network delivery, everything shot and mastered at 23.98). These fellas don’t acknowlege the rest of the world, that struggles with conventional equipment, and archive footage (“archive footage – what’s the big deal – I just pass it thru my Teranex, and it all lines up, before I master out to my Sony SRW-5500 at 4:4:4”).

The Cow is wonderful to observe all “races” of people in the video biz – the rich folks who only do it “the right way”, all the way down to the getto, where some guy wants to know how to get 10 bit uncompressed HD to work on his FW400 drive.

Bob Zelin

[Shane Ross]

[Bob Zelin] “These fellas don’t acknowlege the rest of the world, that struggles with conventional equipment, and archive footage”

The hell you say! I not only acknowledge this, but FIGHT with people who INSIST that they shoot and edit 23.98 for 29.97 delivery. These are primarily people new to editing and production, and just “heard that I have to work in 23.98 to get the film look that I REALLY really want.” I say time and time again, if you have a 29.97 delivery, shoot 29.97. But other people chime in and say “with a capture card you can add pulldown when you output.” Yes, you can, but not always flawlessly. And the fact that 23.98 timelines are NON-Drop only adds another level of headache. Stick to 29.97 if you have a 29.97 delivery. 720p has a 29.97 setting, as does 1080i. Use it.

[Bob Zelin] “archive footage (“archive footage – what’s the big deal – I just pass it thru my Teranex, and it all lines up, before I master out to my Sony SRW-5500 at 4:4:4″).”

Yeah, we had this issue…whoooo what a headache. We did have to resort to a Terranex for some of the footage. SOME…we couldn’t afford much. The rest was done with Compressor….and time.

Sorry…while I might be one of those “high falootin’ Hollyood types,” I am always saying “if you master at 29.97, shoot 29.97.” But again, the production newbies don’t want to hear that…or insist because they read it on some website, or was told by some other FCP newb that this is how you get the “film look.”

And no Rich, I am not calling you a newb..you are a friggin Cow leader! You are very learned and know what you are doing…which is why you know that getting 23.98 for a 29.97 delivery is not wise.

Shane

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[Nate Stephens]

Shane dude, you need a couple more “really’s”

–“and just “heard that I have to work in 23.98 to get the film look that I REALLY really want.”–

I was there a year ago, This grad Student in film writing just had to have the 23.98, so he shot his project with DV and I lost a Betacam SP shoot -n-edit… “really”

But you did say that 1080-24pn or 720-24pn gives you the “film-look” at 29.97 correct.

Forgive my “Newbie” status but I am STill waiting for JAN to mail me my Barry Greens HVX200 book and I got HVX200 HD work this month.

[Shane Ross]

[Nate Stephens] “But you did say that 1080-24pn or 720-24pn gives you the “film-look” at 29.97 correct.”

Sorry, but I “really” did not say that.

PN means PROGRESSIVE NATIVE…Native 23.98…not 29.97 24P runs at 29.97. And there is no such thing as 1080 24PN. PN is only available at 720p

Really.

Shane

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[Nate Stephens]

So if I set the HVX200 to 720pn.. It will have the “film look” but play back 29.97?

Sorry about the mis-quote… Just trying to get up to HVX speed, waiting on barry’s book…

[Shane Ross]

[Nate Stephens] “So if I set the HVX200 to 720pn.. It will have the “film look” but play back 29.97?”

No…no…24PN records at 23.98…SOLID 23.98. Not 29.97. 24P…regular old 24P is what gets you the film look but records and plays back at 29.97.

Shane

Littlefrog Post

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[Nate Stephens]

Thanks Shane,

I have had the HVX for 2 weeks and I am averaging 5 plus hours a day reading and reading trying to get my head around all the little details. It is a whole new world than Betacam SP.

And you can’t ignore it no more. It is HD or bust… And my head is turning to mush.

But what I have seen is very pretty what the little camera can do.

Now if Panny will just mail me Barrys book so I can stay up all night by the fire reading…

thanks dude,, really, thanks