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OT: End of Prosumer Camcorders???
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Dave,
Well I think I’ve been a bit insulted, but that’s fine so here is my reply.
Get yourself a cup of coffee, sit down and spend half an hour looking at this guy’s blog.
Then tell me the 5D is a toyhttps://hurlbutvisuals.com/blog/
Peter
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Dave’s gripe is fundamentally correct, but it’s nothing new. Every manufacturer cripples various parts of their product line (or as they might put it, spreads various features out across their product line), not just Canon. I’ve never bought a piece of gear that wasn’t missing key features that another part of their product line had, or that one of their competitors had. Sometimes it’s arrogant (e.g. Mojo, which sent me straight to FCP/AJA), and sometimes it’s just, unfortunately, strategic.
In this case, it feels to me like Canon designed these two not to draw customers off their XL camcorder line (thus many of Dave’s legitimate gripes regarding form, control, audio), but to come out with a product that tempts people waiting for the Red product to come to market to jump in now, at a price that will attract many to supplement their X series camcorders with a 5 or 7 d. It’s shrewd, effective, and as a consumer, it sucks.
That said, where Dave is missing the boat, IMHO, is with statements like:
“Okay, then YOU take it out on a shoot with actors, dialogue, sync sound and follow focus….”
This myopic view of what production is – be it shooting, editing, or producing, always raises my hackles. A huge section of people working with these tools don’t make their living this way – I’d venture to guess most. Are they getting hosed any more or less than they have when their other gear was feature-limited or had built in obsolescence before they even bought it? Not if it paid for itself.
Dave, the industry practice of feature-limiting is angering, but it is what it is, and Canon is no better or worse than any other manufacturer. Save some of your anger frustration for when Canon releases the Camcorder that we’d like the 5d to be (and they will) with solid state recording, proper audio, ergonomics etc. My guess is that it’s already well along, will come out just before it’s Red counterpart, and will make all the 5 & 7 d owners grumble about how they now have to update their gear again. That’s just the way of the world.
In the meantime, just appreciate this cam for what it is, not what it isn’t.
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[Stu Siegal] “In this case, it feels to me like Canon designed these two not to draw customers off their XL camcorder line (thus many of Dave’s legitimate gripes regarding form, control, audio), but to come out with a product that tempts people waiting for the Red product to come to market to jump in now, at a price that will attract many to supplement their X series camcorders with a 5 or 7 d. It’s shrewd, effective, and as a consumer, it sucks. “
I don’t think this is the case though. Do to a changing landscape photojournalists are being asked to provide web video as well as stills and that’s who vDSLRs were really targeted towards. I mean 30.00fps might suck for a typical b’cast workflow but it’s perfectly fine for the web. Some people in the video world then pressed them into service as primarily video cameras even though these are still photography cameras first and foremost. As video people continue to complain about the lack of video features the DSLR makers will probably continue to try and appease them (like w/the proper frame rates on the 7D), but I don’t think they are going to sacrifice their core audience of photographers to make a camera that is video first and stills second.
Red is the most interesting player in the game because their goal from the beginning for Scarlet and Epic was to make a camera that is equally at home taking moving and still pictures. Time will only tell if Canon and Panasonic will make truly convergent still and video camera or if they will continue to make “proper” video cameras at one part of the company and DSLRs that have tacked on video capability at another part of the company.
-Andrew
3.2GHz 8-core, FCP 6.0.4, 10.5.5
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (6.8.1) -
“I don’t think they are going to sacrifice their core audience of photographers to make a camera that is video first and stills second”
Actually, they addressed the need for high quality stills & web video from one unit a while ago.
https://www.usa.canon.com/app/html/HDV/XHA1/case_study_03.shtml
Granted, still photogs didn’t throw away their DSLR’s for A1’s, and I don’t think Canon really expect them to, but I’m sure the Trib wasn’t the only one to take advantage of the A1 as a still/video news gatherer.
Regardless, the genie is out of the bottle with the 5d & 7d, and it’s only a matter of time until either a wise strategy, an eye for opportunity, or the demands of the marketplace force them to integrate the best of their video features into a proper camcorder.
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The topic of this thread was if the Cannon was somehow going to be the end of the current crop of ‘Prosumer’ cameras, and not if the Cannon was a good camera or not.
Despite some well deserved praise for the Cannon, plenty of folks posted reasons they wouldn’t give up what they are currently using, and jump ship to the Cannon, despite it awesome image.
If you look at broadcasting, there are examples of gear that had better specs not being the ‘king of the hill’. Think of helical scan quads like the IVC 9000. Or look at how Betacam displaced 1″. Even though it didn’t have as good a picture as 1″, other factors made Betacam more popular. Also Betamax and Laserdisc didn’t beat VHS, on the consumer level.
So the argument that picture quality isn’t everything, is certainly valid. At least when it comes to arguing if a one technology will displace another.
I think the diversity of opinions here might indicate that the Cannon DSLR won’t ‘be the end of’ the current ENG style Prosumer cameras anytime soon. -
[Stu Siegal] “Actually, they addressed the need for high quality stills & web video from one unit a while ago.
https://www.usa.canon.com/app/html/HDV/XHA1/case_study_03.shtml
Granted, still photogs didn’t throw away their DSLR’s for A1’s, and I don’t think Canon really expect them to, but I’m sure the Trib wasn’t the only one to take advantage of the A1 as a still/video news gatherer.
Forgive me if I’m missing your point, but I said all this in my previous post, didn’t I? Photojournalists being pressed into shooting video for the web, still cameras that can take ‘good enough’ video for thte web and video cameras that can take ‘good enough’ stills, etc..
Regardless, the genie is out of the bottle with the 5d & 7d, and it’s only a matter of time until either a wise strategy, an eye for opportunity, or the demands of the marketplace force them to integrate the best of their video features into a proper camcorder. “
Again, this is why I waiting to see what Red delivers next year because they stated they were building a camera that’s equally at home taking both video and stills.-Andrew
3.2GHz 8-core, FCP 6.0.4, 10.5.5
Blackmagic Multibridge Eclipse (6.8.1) -
I agree with Peter: This camera is a game changer.
The fps that the camera records or the codec or data-rate is not important. That can be easily changed.
The important thing is the potential.
This have been just an experiment.
Canon didn’t try to make a video camera, just add some not standard video features.
If Canon would offer standard video features, this cameras should be sold as video-cameras instead of still-cameras and paying the royalties-taxes or whatever.I don’t see my self making video with an SLR, but we are going to a new concept of cameras.
A lens-captor system with HDI, HDMI or any other interface, and a scalable recorder.
Rafael -
Dave,
The original intent of the Canon 5d MkII was not to be a video camera, nor challenge any existing video cameras. It was made to fulfil a specific need of reporters from Reuters who could shoot pro quality stills with the occasional video.
The video was made as 30 fps not 29.97 fps with that specific intention as Reuters reporters were expected to create video for the web with this device. Web can work with 30fps every bit as well as 29.97 fps.
The form factor of the camera is friendly for still photographers so they could concentrate on shooting stills rather than learn a whole new alien interface as well as method of using the camera. Still photographers simply wouldn’t have been able to easily adjust to a shoulder mount camera. Whereas, holding a camera at arm’s length and looking at an LCD screen is not very new to them.
What Canon did not estimate is how well the video fraternity took this camera up. They have sold nearly 50,000 5dMkII models and maybe about half as many 7Ds. And now there’s the 1D MkIV. Together, through 2010 Canon could easily move probably a 100,000 pieces.
There is probably no video camera, and definitely no pro HD or higher resolution camera that can ever hope to sell these numbers. Even the Red, arguably the post popular pro digital movie camera so far, has sold not too many over 5000.
One of the benefits of making a still camera that shoots video, rather than a video camera that shoots stills, is that still shooters who use the SLR form factor are generally good photographers. They have a strong sense of composition and pictorial language.
They often also make a living out of taking pictures. Hence, by and large, videos from these vDSLRs seem to be pretty decent looking compared to the shaky, zoomy, swimmy videos most amateurs dish out of handycam type video cameras.
Vimeo, Flickr, smugmug, Exposure Room are full of some really great video from vDSLRs. Perya, Dublin’s People, Nocturne, lots of examples.
Granted, they may be unsuitable for broadcast, but there is a huge, not-recession-ridden market of wedding video, corporate video, and internet video that can benefit from vDSLRs.
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Neil Sadwelkar
neilsadwelkar.blogspot.com
twitter: fcpguru
FCP Editor, Edit systems consultant
Mumbai India -
I am a newbie to the video world, but I am a pro in the photo world. Let me first start by saying that:
1. The lines are blurring between the 2 camps.
2. Nothing will replace the person behind the lens.
3. Content will always beat out slick output.That being said, I decided to go with the Panasonic HPX170 and the Letus Elite. Granted it may cost more, but I am able to use all my old SLR lenses. I agree with Dave about all the features that video camera has, and after doing my first live gig, it makes a difference. For Indie films you have more forgiveness in the setting, but live, documentary or run and gun shooting, the 7D’s operative capabilities are a real handicap.
Granted being a Nikon guy had a small effect, but I can use the Letus with any camera I buy and using other lenses is just a matter of buying an adapter. So if I want to use Canon Lenses I can.
My last comment is there are 2 things that will never change. The human eye and the glass of the lens. If you keep that in mind, then technology is a tool and you will always find the best answer for the situation.
If you are personally NOT shooting yourself, TRUST YOUR DP!!! He may not like your equipment. Jimi Hendrix if alive today could even make a $20 guitar from Wal-Mart sound good!
Thank you.
Terry Jun
TMJ Studios. (I’m new to doing video myself) -
[Neil Sadwelkar] ” Hence, by and large, videos from these vDSLRs seem to be pretty decent looking compared to the shaky, zoomy, swimmy videos most amateurs dish out of handycam type video cameras. “
I agree with you Neil, but so far we have been watching mostly select Canon MK5 footage.
With 100.00 cameras in the street, we will end up watching horrible things from that amazing camera.
And be sure that the horrible things from that camera will look worst than any amateurs video.
We will end up getting tired of the “sallow deep of focus”.Terry have mentioned:
2. Nothing will replace the person behind the lens.
3. Content will always beat out slick output.
And lets don’t forget about technology.
Photographers welcome to the world of the “living codec”.
To get a 45 minutes documentary with pictures as Peter Wiggins brought here, is not as easy as just to click your Canon.
Cheers,
rafael
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