OT: End of Prosumer Camcorders???

[John Knapich]

Has anyone had experience on the POST workflow from the Canon?
We did a small job where a photographer shot video with the still camera and we had some issues with the files even after converting them to ProRes. It seem to take forever to render the files and when we did efx they too seemed take forever.
Given, we adopted the project from the photographer, so we did not have control of the workflow from the beginning, so I have no input on that.

OS X Quad Core Intel
10gig memory
FCP 6.06
Dulce 5 TB raid

[Mitch Ives]

[Dave LaRonde] “And finally, the geniuses at Canon set up those cameras to shoot at 30fps. Not Film’s 24, not NTSC’s 23.976, not PAL’s 25, not NTSC’s 29.97, but 30. It isn’t a natural frame rate for ANYTHING.

So: it makes drop-dead gorgeous pictures, but the camera’s hard to operate, it shoots at the wrong frame rate, and you can’t easily edit the video. “

I’m going to have to disagree, based on my experience. I haven’t switched, but I have worked with it. First, the 5D came out first, so it’s strictly 30.00. The 7D which just came out doesn’t have any of the issues you’re describing. The 30P is 29.97. The 24p is 23.98, and it has 25p (haven’t used it). Given that, it isn’t a big stretch that either the 5D mkIII or the firmware update will have exactly the same thing.

Second, the raw clips will play in FCP without any rendering or re-encoding, which makes them a lot less trouble than my P2 or somebody’s EX-1. You can also us Pro-Res, which is no more trouble than P2, SxS, or AVC.

So, I guess I’ll have to ask why you feel this way?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Mitch Ives]

[Vince Becquiot] “And of course, no onboard audio and no easy way to sync it to a separate recorder. That in itself is a deal breaker for a good majority of us. “

I was under the impression that the 5D has onboard audio recording? I believe a firmware update added on-board recording to the 5D. Of course, the 7D has onboard recording.

We used a Zoom H4 for external recording. I believe most people are using one of those…

I must have misunderstood your point and missed something here?

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Mitch Ives]

[Zane Barker] “Canons SLR department and Video camera departments are DIFFERENT DEPARTMENTS. Im personally betting with time that they till do some merging and we will some cameras aimed toward video people what will use the SLR lenses. “

I think you’ve hit it on the nailhead. I’ll go one further, I’ll bet the video division of Canon is saying, “hey, we don’t have anything selling like that 5D/7D, we need to do something”. I personally thing that Canon is the only company that could stuff a 5D sensor in an H2 body, because they don’t have anything upstream to cannibalize sales from. Sony and Panasonic have a problem… if it’s too good, how you going to sell those 3700, 2700, 900 and 950 cameras? Same problem we’ve always had…

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Mitch Ives]

[John Davidson] “You could also point out that Final Cut should/could support editing via H.264. Apple sure pushed that codec down our throats hard enough a few years ago. That doesn’t make me a sucker to Apple, that just means Apple still has work to do. I’m not going to refuse to work in FCP because of it. “

At least the raw clips will play back on the FCP timeline… as long as you don’t need monitor playback… ouch!

Mitch Ives
Insight Productions Corp.
mitch@insightproductions.com
http://www.insightproductions.com

[Peter Wiggins]

Yeup, compressor settings are vital

Peter

[Deleted User]

Hi Dave L.: Thanks for hanging-in here. I always appreciate your posts, and your stick-with-it persistence here does you credit. 🙂

Sorry for the long post, but here are few observations:

– The Canon video-capable DSLR cams output live video including while in record mode. However, the output signal varies a bit depending on the model. For example, I believe the 5DM2 puts out a signal approx. 480p letter-boxed via HDMI, whereas the 7D outputs approx. 720p via HDMI. Not as useful as SDI, but better than nothing. When an HDMI cable is connected to the Canons their built-in LCD monitor turns off. These cams can also output composite video, but I’m less familiar exactly how & when they do. In terms of video out capabilities, the current Canon DSLRs obviously aren’t as versatile as a typical broadcast cam, let alone most prosumer or eve a few consumer cams, but they do in fact output “live video”. Kinda. 🙂

– The Panasonic GH1 doesn’t output any live video when the cam is in record mode. Nothing. Nada. Vilch. Cute huh? [Not.]

– I believe none of the current crop of DSLRs output live audio when they’re in record mode. I know for sure the GH1 doesn’t; I’m not 1000% certain about the Canons. So, live monitoring of audio being recorded into these cams is not supported by the manufacturers. Just to prove the manufacturers have a sense of humor, they didn’t put headphone jacks on these things. Would’ve cost them, what, $0.02? I mean, why make a “HD video & stereo sound recording device” without a headphone jack? LOL funny, I’m tell’n ya.

– Not only can’t you monitor the audio being recorded in-cam, but the DSLRs also feature an always-on automatic audio record level feature that can’t be turned off. Results: Useable as a scratch/reference track or maybe for better-than-nothing program audio, but clearly less than desirable. Alternatively, an external audio recorder such as the H4N and similar can be used. But still, in-cam audio recording can be handy:
https://vimeo.com/groups/gh1/videos/5860184

– The free, open source “Magic Lantern” firmware software adds several useful features to the Canon 5DM2, possibly including zebras, manual audio rec levels & on-screen meters, and many more. Can’t beat the price, but some folks may prefer not to rely on 3rd party software running in their cam. That’s cool. ML isn’t available for the 7D — yet. Stay tuned for further developments.

– Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge there isn’t anything similar to Magic Lantern available for the GH1. Sigh.

– Although Canon, Panasonic, Sony, etc. may come out with cameras next year (?) that incorporate technology from the video-capable DSLRs, it’s likely such “video cams” will cost considerably more than their nearest-equivalent DSLR. These near-future, larger-than-2/3″ sensor traditional form-factor video cameras will be very useful tools. But I bet they’ll cost considerably more than $2K. Maybe Panasonic will put the guts of a GH1 inside an entry-level shoulder-mount body. Panasonic & Sony have done similar things before.

– In competent hands, the current crop of DSLR cams can produce attractive but relatively low-res “HD” video. The Canons especially produce impressive amounts of aliasing artifacts, including false-colors. Fun! 🙂 But I repeat: Despite this, they can make useful and pretty “HD” video. Barry Green at DVXuser.com shot some res chart test that are real eye-openers:
https://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=187503
https://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=186334
https://www.dvxuser.com/V6/forumdisplay.php?f=187

– Most of the HD video-capable DSLR cams are relatively inexpensive compared to most prosumer video cams & all pro video cams. Further, the body-only version of the Panasonic GH1 is about half the price of a Canon 7D body. Making direct comparisons between these cams really should include an acknowledgment of how inexpensive they are. Whatever “flaws” or “shortcomings” these cams may have, they can be incredible values if they are appropriate for the task at hand.

– Even though the current crop of video-capable DSLR cams have certain fairly severe technical and ergonomic limitations, there are at least hundreds of examples of very nicely-shot video created using them available on Vimeo, YouTube, and elsewhere. Here are two; there are _many_ more out there:
https://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=1795042&postcount=95
https://www.vimeo.com/7121830

– Illya Friedman of Hot Rod Cameras has posted some very useful suggestions for how to get good results using the GH1. He also sells a pro-quality PL lens mount (!) for the cam:
https://www.hotrodcameras.com/category/tips-and-tricks/

– “Broadcast quality” = “If the station/network/channel/website wants to show a video badly enough, they’ll show it, no matter what the video was shot with”. Broadcast quality isn’t a tech spec, it’s a business decision. Sure, some cams are already on the pre-approved lists, but things change, same as ever.

Enjoy the new tools!

– Peter

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[Curtis d p Smith]

watch for an apc sensor dslr canon camcorder at nab 2010. it will have all the ergonomics prosumers need. it will be a few years for this format to go to 2/3inch. i feel sorry for jim oakley. he pioneered this whole idea. once again, brilliant reverse engineering.

[Fred Weil]

Dave,
Thanks for being the “Devil” in a room full of advocates. Someone has to tell the “dirty” side of the story.

Having said that I stumbled on this post because I’m trying to purchase a new rig and I’m rapidly going gray in doing so. I shoot eng news for national broadcast on the networks as well as commercials and sports. I want to spend less than 10k. I hope to be able to pass a tape to a producer but am slowly be persuaded to go to cards sd/cf/p2 etc. I thought the HVX200, which I own, was a god-send my mistake was learning after the fact that HD did not go to tape. I would love to know what you recommend I buy next. I’ve been eying in no particular order:
Sony Z7U
Sony PMW EX1
Sony PMW EX3
RED Scarlet (if it ever shows it’s face)
Panasonic HMC 150
Canon 7D
Canon 5D

Open to any other suggestions you may have.
Thanks for your time.

[John Davidson]

Canon has a 7D log an transfer plugin coming in the next few weeks. That’ll make HDSLR footage much easier to manage.

And David, in our world a week is really fast :-).