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OT: Adobe raising our costs by 600%
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[Craig Seeman] “[Chris Jacek] “I’m going to have to call “passive aggressive” on you Craig,”
Yep, I was very deliberate too. Actually aggressive aggressive IMHO.
[Chris Jacek] “I personally think that FCPX is still a highly flawed editing tool.”
I rest my case on that one. Not that a personal opinion is wrong but that’s not the person to teach the tool or even be open minded on student preference. “
Okay, then let me clarify. I thought I’d meant that you were being myopic and arrogant. What I really mean is that you’re being a flat-out asshole. How dare you question my teaching methods, and choices for what my department, and my students have to pay for. What the hell do you know about my teaching? I’m sorry Craig, but I’m not closed minded. I’ve used them all, and have made my decisions. So have my students.
Last year my students learned four editing platforms in about 6 months time, including your precious FCPX. Getting them to learn FCP7, Premiere, Avid, and FCPX was not the hard part. They absorbed all of it like a sponge. These kids are way more intelligent than you give them credit for. And way more savvy to BS than your and me combined. They made their choice about what THEY consider to be useful and professional. Despite whatever biases I bring to the table, they are capable of making their own decisions.
Not a one of them who spent the same exact price for their entry-level Macbook Pro is happy when compared to their classmates who got a high-end PC laptop. Their render times in After Effects are more than twice as long, often longer. This may be because their RAM is half, and their storage less than a quarter of the students with the same priced PC setup, which has a dedicated graphics card and Blu-Ray burner too. They understand workflow. They understand cost/benefit. They don’t care what is the easiest program to re-arrange clips on. Easy is for day one. Doing good work is for days 2-n. They want the platform and program that does the best trim editing, integrates the best with After Effects, renders the fastest, and crashes the least. They aren’t looking for the EASIEST tool, they are looking for the BEST tool. And because my opinion of what the BEST tool is does not agree with yours, you’re going to tell me that I’m not the person for the job. And who is the person for the job, Craig? You? If you’re as much of a prick in front of young adults as you are in this message, I don’t think you’d be a very good teacher.
We’ve had our run-ins before, Craig, and sometimes it’s really fun. But this time really pissed me off (obviously). I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this particular exchange, and assume that the cruelty and rudeness contained within is not really who you are. I hope you’ll do the same with my off-color response.
CJ
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
Admittedly, because of timing, they got the worst possible incarnation of FCPX, circa Sept 2011. Unfortunately, the decision about what to do for 2012 had to come before FCPX matured to its current state. But that is also the unfortunate aspect of releasing something that isn’t quite ready, and forcing people to make a decision.
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
[Craig Alan] “Software and religion are cut from the same cloth. They are both tools to remake reality in your own image.
“Nice. Can I steal that?
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
[Andrew Kimery] “You can love whatever you want all you want but don’t dicate to others why they like/dislike what they do. That type of evangelism just grates on my nerves. “
Sorry you’re so sensitive to this, but honestly, if you think posting opinions in a public forum for debate is “dictating to others” then you have a perception problem.
I’m dictating nothing to no one. Dictating indicates the power to force something on them.
We’re in free will land here. You dislike my opinions, post countervailing ones. If you think I’m wrong about why I like the changes that X had generated in my business you have two options. Learn about it and dispute them on the merits (as MANY here do) or disengate from the discussion if you don’t have the time, energy or inclination to understand the software being debated here (you know, the forum with FCP-X in it’s NAME!)
Walking onto a football field and arguing that football is LAME might be something you enjoy. But you wouldn’t REALLY do that and expect those who love the game to look at you with anything less than the classic hairy eyeball.
Debate, disengage, or simply move along. Personally, I hope you stay and engage. But please argue the merits of the REALITY of X. Not the smoke and mirror stuff. You think it’s NOT good at something say what. We can discuss that.
But I’m likely going to continue to write about having fun using X – regardless of anyone else’s opinion – first because it’s my reality – and second, because that’s a solid part of what this forum is FOR.
Kinda simple as that.
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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I’d like credit. But feel free. I too am an educator.
The best deal right now is AVID MC – $300 and good for 4 years of free updates. Now AVID might go under and MC is a slightly tougher learning curve. People might complain about the dated interface, but no one will accuse them of not being professional. It is cross platform. It plays well with others.I chose FCP X for my classes because they are HS students. However i got 10 copies of MC so I can have serious students learn it too. Plus if I change my mind based on what happens to FCP X, I can switch over to MC. I miss FCP 7. But I have no doubts that FCP X is plenty powerful enough for the type of videos that are done in schools, and events, and weddings, and industrials, and and and. (Please put back multiple tracks! They just work.) And a fast turn around would be welcome.
My only regrets was possibly not going with PPro. But given your post maybe I made the right decision. Not sure how they could just up their rates that radically after institutions bought in. What happens when the term expires? Can you just continue to use the non-updated software until you can afford to renew? That’s the case with FCP X as far as I know. But the renewal isn’t 600% higher either. Not a smart move on Adobe’s part. They have an opportunity here to take over FCP 7’s share of the pro world. Why make it hard for schools to offer it?
MacPro4,1 2.66GHz 8 core 12gigs of ram. GPU: Nvidia Geoforce GT120 with Vram 512. OS X 10.6.x; Camcorders: Panasonic AG-HPX170, Sony Z7U, Canon HV30/40, Sony vx2000/PD170; FCP 6 certified; write professionally for a variety of media; teach video production in L.A.
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And what if it really ISN’T suitable to professionals? That seems to be a possibility that FCPX lovers fail to recognize. If people criticize something new, why is it always assumed that they “are not open minded to change”? The new thing could just simply suck.
I’m not necessarily saying this is the case with FCPX as it stands now. But when it came out, it was not usable to me, and to many others. As is the case with the Mac Pro, many did not, and do not, have the luxury to wait and hope for the best.
Though I have not spent much time lately with FCPX, because I had to alter my media program, it seems to be catching up to its original promise, and maybe even becoming a true “professional tool.” But you know what? The Ampex Ace was also a professional tool. But it was bassackwards and never fully embraced by the post-production community. There was a segment of editors who swore by it, but that didn’t make it a good product.
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
[Craig Alan] “My only regrets was possibly not going with PPro. But given your post maybe I made the right decision. Not sure how they could just up their rates that radically after institutions bought in. What happens when the term expires? Can you just continue to use the non-updated software until you can afford to renew? That’s the case with FCP X as far as I know. But the renewal isn’t 600% higher either. Not a smart move on Adobe’s part. They have an opportunity here to take over FCP 7’s share of the pro world. Why make it hard for schools to offer it?”
I think you may be right. I never would have expected this from Adobe, given their long history of aggressive educational pricing. Just to be clear, our licenses are perpetual, so we will get to keep using whatever version we have last. We’ll keep getting our updates until our maintenance contract runs out, so I’m obviously hoping for some nice updates between now and then. That would buy me a year or so. By then I’m hoping we’ll have a clearer picture of the fate of Avid. I could certainly go back to Avid if they keep with their great $299 deal for 4 years. But that still leaves me stuck when it comes to After Effects, which is a large part of my curriculum.
For what it’s worth, I don’t know if Adobe plans to raise their price at all for new licenses. For all I know, they may keep with their aggressive academic pricing in that instance. But I never intended on having to buy another new license unless my program grew large enough to expand beyond what we have. The maintenance contract guaranteed that I wouldn’t have to. Now Adobe won’t even let me renew that contract, and the only solutions they offer to my situation are 1) Buy a new full license for the product that I already bought a full license for (no upgrade pricing) or 2) Pay $40 a month per seat for the Creative Cloud Team.
Ironically, we will probably go with option #3, which is to keep using our last version of the software for as long as possible. I call this irony because this is exactly what Adobe’s new system was designed to avoid: People skipping versions.
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
[Aindreas Gallagher] “Again: adobe are really likely to tiptoe completely past this discussion. the guys who come in here likely have no say in what is pretty rabid short term dollar hungry policy from the top.”
Aindreas, I thought you might find this post interesting. I started this same thread on the Premiere forum, in the hopes of hearing something from somebody from Adobe. I actually got one, which I pasted below. It is not very encouraging, however. It seems that I have been getting this same song and dance from several directions and division from within Adobe, and each time I call, I am never even allowed to escalate to a supervisor. I’m simply told “that’s all I can offer you at this time.” Very disturbing. As you can see from my response (pasted after the Adobe response), my patience for this situation is wearing thin. Shady corporate ethos from Apple and Adobe, and the possible death of Avid, may eventually drive us all into the arms of open-source products.
Hi Guys,
To be clear about the way maintenance giving you upgrade rights on top of the original purchase and how the creative cloud offering works – the per seat fee for Master Collection (which is platform agnostic! being on a Mac or PC the same account access knows which installer you require), with other services including training videos across the entire toolset, a space for social from behance (coming) and free new feature based upgrades drops (can be as frequent as per month if they are ready to drop) is in the constant pricing model that’s subscribed to the plan.
The cost of per seat is locked in and can be budgeted in forecasts. Getting Team allows you to allow access to students based on an admin assigned sign in and when students leave, graduate that account is closed and reassigned. Seats can be scaled mid-way too.
CLP licenses won’t have access to the new feature rich (innovation based) updates – legally. This meant in the past that updates of this nature required waiting until a full year/18month cycle was released before the features could be passed on at the extra cost.
The Cloud based subscription bypasses the innovation lag.
So effectively $40 per seat is $40 per seat even when a major update drops. If you a in subscription timeframe you effectively have maintenance built into the price.
From the sites I saw you would otherwise be paying about $600 for the Prod Premium only software, then the maintenance on top. If the students want to learn where video goes across digital publishing, web etc, you need to buy more software. This is just software there are no extended services included in this product line.
Reapply the mathematics knowing the maintenance is included in the pricing and consider the extent of allowing students access to the software on their computers too. They get access to 2 Adobe Expert lessons per seat/year and 100G of cloud based storage.
Hope this helps a little more about understanding the value of Creative Cloud.
🙂
JB
Adobe Systems,
Video Solutoins Consultatnt, A/NZJon Barrie
Adobe Video Solutions Consultant ANZ
Jon’s YouTube Tutorial Page
follow Jon with twitterRe: Price increase of 600% for Production Premium for our college
by Chris Jacek on Mar 2, 2013 at 9:24:47 pmI understand how it works, and everything you mention sounds great. Except for the price. The fact that there is no longer an upfront cost means little to us, because we have already paid the upfront costs of the perpetual license. We retain our license when the student leaves, and can then re-assign it to another of our students when they join the program. Since the computers are portable, they ARE using them at home, even though they actually belong to the college until the day they graduate or leave the school otherwise. All this, we are already receiving, but for only $6.25 a month. I know it is only software, but that is truly only what we need, and more importantly, what we can afford. Are you suggesting that the extras you mention are worth over $33 per month? They certainly are not worth that to us.
I think the Cloud is a great idea, but your pricing structure is exploitative to educators as compared to your previous licensing system. And frankly, we will NEVER be able to afford it, which leaves us with 2 choices: Keep using our old stuff, or look elsewhere. Adobe used to be a company that valued its educational users by aggressively discounting their products 75-80% over the commercial prices. That’s why we chose Adobe in the first place. This will also be the reason we STOP using Adobe products if this new policy is not improved. To keep with your traditional aggressive educational pricing, you should be offering the Creative Cloud for about $10-12 per month.
If this new pricing structure is such a great deal, then why kill the old system so quickly? If it is such a great deal, people would certainly flock to the new system and abandon the one we’ve been using. But Adobe’s decision to quickly kill the old licensing system, shows that they know they are screwing over their educational customers. I noticed that Adobe still offers “Upgrade Plan” for CLP licensees on the commercial side, but not education.
I think it’s pretty obvious that Adobe no longer wants to court education with the aggressive discounts that they used to. How long do you think that educational institutions are going to support Adobe when you jack up the prices so much so fast?
Professor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple EmployeeProfessor, Producer, Editor
and former Apple Employee -
[Bill Davis] “Sorry you’re so sensitive to this, but honestly, if you think posting opinions in a public forum for debate is “dictating to others” then you have a perception problem.”
Like I said in my previous post, you can love what you want all you want but preaching in absolutes (like below quote) just undercuts any reasonable discussion you are attempting to have.
[Bill Davis] “Editors in two simple camps.
BEM camp or NBEM camp.
(Before Eureka! Moment or Not Before Eureka! Moment)”Not much room left for people that have given it an honest try but just don’t like it as much as other NLEs (maybe they were holding it wrong?) or people that have a workflow that X can’t easily fit into.
If your comment was meant to be cheeky then toss in a 😉 or something as cheeky is hard to glean on the internet.
[Bill Davis] “Debate, disengage, or simply move along. Personally, I hope you stay and engage. But please argue the merits of the REALITY of X. Not the smoke and mirror stuff. You think it’s NOT good at something say what. We can discuss that.”
I think you have me confused with someone else as I’ve never spent my time here randomly bashing anything. From the day X was released my position has been that if it grows into a tool I need then I’ll pick it up. Currently what I find most lacking in X is that none of my perspective employers use it and that’s a pretty big deterrent as an editor for hire. If I get the feeling that’s changing then I’ll learn X but until then it behoves me to spend my professional development time improving my skills on Avid MC, AE and Resolve (and to a lesser extent PPro) since those will land me jobs today and for the foreseeable future. FCP X and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee in LA these days. 😉 <— cheeky
[Bill Davis] “But I’m likely going to continue to write about having fun using X – regardless of anyone else’s opinion – first because it’s my reality – and second, because that’s a solid part of what this forum is FOR.”
That’s great. I wouldn’t want anything different. It’s only when you seem to forget that the experiences & needs of others will not necessarily mirror your experiences & needs that my eyes roll.
As a slight aside, I wish I was able to attend and meet you at the LACPUG. I feel like online communication is less obtuse (for lack of a better word) when people have met offline.
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[Chris Jacek] “Last year my students learned four editing platforms in about 6 months time, including your precious FCPX. “
FCPX progressed significantly since last year.
When many are revisiting it to evaluate again and some don’t. The latter position does tell me something. Granted many may move on but I wouldn’t describe that as “vehement.” Last years failure can be this year’s success or at least improved. To me that does reflect an attitude towards the industry and the ongoing changes (well beyond FCPX). Sorry if that offends you but this has always been my personal opinion about the tools of the industry which do change over time.
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