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NLE wars
The Problem: People who do not put hours into editing do not have sufficient knowledge to accurately judge which is the “best” editing software for a specific project. Inadequate knowledge of computers also skews such opinions.
I’m an editor. It upsets me to see people putting advertisements for editing gigs which say, “Edit my movie, but you have to use Final Cut Pro.”
If I were a race car driver, it would upset me to have sponsors say “Win the race for us, but you’ve got to get out of your Lamborghini and drive this Corvette.”
The real problem: companies cannot get along. Apple and Sony are not about to merge and create a universal NLE which uses the best features from both and is both compatible with all operating systems and NLE file types. Apple is big, well known, and has amazing advertising; a lot of which is driven at young college age people. It is doing well and it has no obligation or desire to play nice for the sake of compatibility. That goes for most other companies as well.
We as editors are not going to stop using Sony Vegas because at the very least it is on par with the top tier NLEs. Why should we knowingly downgrade our main tool? And how come people are even still using FCP in light of this?
People are staying with FCP for a few reasons:
- They know this program the best so they don’t feel it’s worth their time to go learn a new one.
- They don’t have enough computer experience to fix or deal with the complexity of PCs (viruses, freezes, blue screens..) Apple as a company is a modern day monument to the fact that a majority of people are not computer savvy.
- They are just trying to stay with one editing system within their company/school in order to preserve compatibility.
Schools are adopting FCP more and more to use for the sake of compatibility. They can put in a bunch of bays with Apple systems and forget about them. Pretty soon a majority of editors are using one type of NLE. In media wars, usually the most common/popular system wins over lesser known but technically superior system. So, I guess yeah, we’re losing the war.
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5 Replies
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> I’m an editor. It upsets me to see people putting advertisements for editing gigs which say, “Edit my movie, but you have to use Final Cut Pro.”
This is not an unreasonable request given the proprietary nature of the Mac. It is a system with extremely limited options that doesn’t play well with others. Unlike a PC that can ingest almost any kind of files, Macs and FCP only work with a limited set of formats. Even when you capture industry standard HDV with FCP it must convert it into it’s own proprietary format so that people on a PC can’t use it, even though native HDV edits quite well on a PC. So what these people are saying is, “Help me, I’ve purchased a very limited system and I need you to work within the same limitations to be compatible”. It’s very sad actually (these poor mislead people) 😉 (…said with tongue planted firmly in cheek) lol
On a more serious note, what is really sad is that there are no industry standards with regard editing formats and no two NLE’s on the planet can exchange EDL and preserve fidelity. So if I were a looking for an editor, I would demand that they use Vegas because that’s the project structure I need should I have to re-edit the job in the future. Because of NLE incompatibilities, it’s not unreasonable to request someone who uses the same tools as you, unless you are just looking for a finished product and you don’t own the project when it’s complete (ie., like a wedding video).
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
I am a wedding/event videographer and I spend good amount of personal quality time in post, editing each video clip by clip to insure my clients satisfaction. One problem with people who go into vidoegraphy that I have noticed is the majority do not spend quality time editing, because they feel it’s too time consuming and they have more important things to do with that time, so they just throw clips together, throw in a song and it looks as if the client had his uncle stick a camera up and shot it. There is no professionalism, the video does not flow or match the music, etc. etc. This to me is a disgrace and gives the wedding/event videography industry a bad name which hurts those of us who do care and and are professional with their clients and videos. This is my livelihood yet it is also my passion and love and it kills me to see a video edited so poorly when it could have been so beautiful, and for those who say ah $500 wedding what do they expect? well it shouldn’t matter how cheap they hired you for, each video and each client deserves the same professionalism. I know I kinda went off track here with this topic, however I just needed to get that off my chest. Okay now as far as editing software, I have been editing beautifully for the past 4 years with Vegas pro series, I’m using pro8.c and I love it, it works great for me. I agree with the statement made about the race car driver… the best editing software isn’t which product is more expensive, more popular, etc. the best editing software is the one that works the best for you and that your comfortable with. I have meet diffrent videographer’s during my years and I have meet more that use Apple then Sony, the reason? because that’s what’s popular and they feel the more $$ they shell out the better it will be. True Apple does offer things Vegas does not, however how many times are you really going to be using all of their 3D composite imaginary etc.? especially for a wedding or a special event? When I have shown my work to fellow videographer’s who use Apple, before I tell them what I use, they are blown away by how clean and smooth my video’s look and how they flow so well… when I tell them I use Vegas pro. they are in awe, why? because again Apple is the popular brand and Vegas is tend to be looked at as the little brother who gets kicked to the curb. I love Vegas for the simple fact it has all the plugin’s and tools necessary to get the job done professionally. It is more user friendly etc. however that is not what made my decision to use Vegas, I have used Apple software Final Cut pro. After Effects etc. etc. and yes they are very fine programs, yet when I used Vegas for the first time it just appealed to me more. And for those who say Vegas doesn’t have all the plugin’s as Apple does.. well maybe you should google, I have found tons of diffrent cool plugin’s for Vegas and many of the same type of plugin’s Apple has just in Vegas form.
Bottom line is: Never let companies tell you what you should or should not use, compare for yourself, take a few test drives and see which is more compatible for you.
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>>Schools are adopting FCP more and more to use for the sake of compatibility. They can put in a bunch of bays with Apple systems and forget about them. Pretty soon a majority of editors are using one type of NLE. In media wars, usually the most common/popular system wins over lesser known but technically superior system. So, I guess yeah, we’re losing the war.
John:
I am new to video editing, but not altogether new to computers. If I may say so, it seems to me that the reason Sony Vegas and the PC open platform is losing the war is precisely because Mac is a closed platform, and PC is altogether ‘too’ open, with no standardization.
Avid specifies certain configurations that they will support. If Sony were to issue a truly professional-grade product with all sorts of format support (P2, anyone?), and were to offer enhanced services based on certain pre-approved configurations, then I would imagine that Apple’s imaginary superiority would be seen for the imaginary superiority that it is (according to all reports, seeing as I have never used it).
To wit: please see also John Rofrano’s system recommendations, which specify an ‘Intel standard everything.’ This effectively closes the PC ‘open platform’ to the point where the machine configuration will behave stable.
I cannot, and do not agree that price is everything. Yes, people like Vegas because it is good, and cheap. However, when one is working at the Hollywood level, time is more important than money. HP even markets the Z800 workstation with the come-on that if one is working professionally at the Dreamworks level, the Z800 ‘with everything’ for $15k pays for itself in about a month, because the machine is rock-stable, and saves that much time when rendering truly 3-d applications.
Even at my level, as a next-to-total noob, time is more important than money. I will always trade away money if it will save me time, and I was ready to go Apple because I could not figure out why I could not get my Dell T3400 Workstation to play right. I got that figured out, with JR’s help, but the point is that at the Hollywood level, and when they are paying $100,000.00+ a year for editors, they just don’t have eight weeks to fight with the hardware/software combination. They need a closed system that they can expect to pull right out of the box, and set it up, and begin using it. If Sony and the other big dogs could guarantee the Hollywood boys just exactly that, then (and only then) do I believe Sony Vegas would begin to find true acceptance. You know what I mean?
So Sony, if you are listening, or if anyone knows anyone at Sony, please pass this message along to them, because now that I know the problems I was having earlier could have been altogether avoided by purchasing an Avid-style ‘pre-approved’ hardware configuration, I am sure I would have done that.
You know what I mean?
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org -
>>So what these people are saying is, “Help me, I’ve purchased a very limited system and I need you to work within the same limitations to be compatible”. It’s very sad actually (these poor mislead people) 😉 (…said with tongue planted firmly in cheek) lol
Except with all due respect, John, it is not really funny. If we really believe that Vegas is a superior application, then we need to make sure Sony does something about it, or else it will go by the wayside.
I would suggest that the real reason people ‘go Apple’ is because they want to avoid headaches, and/or lost/down time. At the ‘home user’/hobbyist level, one can sometimes trade off a little bit of time in order to save money: but how many people have you met who are frustrated with the PC platform, because they cannot get things to work, and don’t know about the importance of an ‘Intel standard’ PC (as you recommend on your website).
Most people are willing to pay a certain sum of money in order to save time; and I am one of them (and I strongly recommend the practice). I am almost totally new to Vegas, but I almost ditched the program not long ago (I am sure you remember) because my Dell was giving me problems. Nobody told me that Dells were finicky with this stuff, or else I would have gone HP (or IBuyPower).
If Sony were to keep an updated list of configurations for both pre-builts and homebuilts on which Vegas could be expected to function reliably (a la Avid), and if they updated it actively (say, each month), then the superior price-point of Vegas and its ease-of-use become viable bonuses. However, without such a list, saving a few hundred dollars (or even a few thousand dollars) is meaningless: and Hollywood will never adopt it unless you can guarantee them that they are not buying into headaches, and lost/down time, because the costs of lost/down time are just far, far, far too great. It just falls quickly into the ‘not worth it’ category.
If the current practice continues, then most people are going to buy a Dell (or an AMD, or a whatever), and then expect Vegas to work on their truly-open-platform PC; and they are going to get upset and frustrated (just like I did) when they lose eight weeks (!) of their precious time (which they don’t have enough of to begin with), banging their heads against the wall, trying to figure out what in the world is wrong, that they cannot just begin editing right out of the box, like Apple claims.
I read an article in DV magazine about a couple who ditched their Apple G5’s for HP 4800’s (or something) because the Apples kept crashing with Avid Media Composer 3.5. Time is money, and when one is working under deadline, time is really more precious than money; because if you cannot make deadline, you lose the job, and the client, and your business; and then you don’t get any more.
It’s just not funny: it is serious.
Avid has the right idea with their ‘pre-approved’ systems. The blessing on Sony is that Sony is supposed to be less finicky than Avid, and so the ‘pre-approved’ list could be even much looser/more extensive, and still provide a stable ‘out of the box’ experience; and Sony could also include your ‘home-built’ recommendations, for those who prefer to ‘buiild it themselves.’
If you know people at Sony, please tell them to take this seriously. If Sony will reliably and actively update a ‘recommended hardware list’ or a ‘prebuilt approved’ list (say, monthly), then the better price-point and the features will become a viable lure for those video professionals who cannot afford to lose time. But if they don’t know how to get a rock=stable system with Vegas, or if uncertainty exists (which I can absolutely guarantee you that it does), then Vegas will not thrive in Hollywood.
It’s all about Time, and Time being money, reputation, and job. In other words, it’s all about workflow. Until Vegas can guarantee people a better positive workflow experience for less dollars than Apple, Apple will continue to dominate the industry.
[P.S., and while you are at it, please tell Sony that they are being very short-sighted, and are shooting themselves in the foot by not supporting Panasonic and P2. You would think they would know that the way one dominates an industry is not by limiting one’s own functionality and compatibility with other industry standards: the way one dominates an industry is by building a reputation for providing superior functionality and compatibility with industry standards, for less money.]
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org -
>>I have meet diffrent videographer’s during my years and I have meet more that use Apple then Sony, the reason? because that’s what’s popular and they feel the more $$ they shell out the better it will be.
Yes, perhaps: but more importantly, they have so many irons in the fire, and so many deadlines, and so much pressure to meet deadline (whether that pressure is self-imposed, or external), that they can not stand the thought of down time. And they are willing to trade away many thousands of dollars (!) if someone, anyone, can take those headaches away, and keep them from losing their precious time.
Enter Apple: who proposes that their closed system can take those headaches away ‘for a few dollars more’: and busy professionals consider that an excellent trade.
And if Sony will propose Intel-standardized specs for prebuilts and homebuilts, then the potential dollar-savings might mean something to the Hollywood Industry, who pays their professionals upwards of $100,000.00 per year, and cannot afford down time.
But if Hollywood professionals do not know how to maximize uptime with Vegas, and if they cannot use a format so standard as P2 (!), then saving a few hundred/few thousand dollars is meaningless to them, because the lost time will translate to thrashed reputations, and lost client bases.
And the Media Generators thing did not help, either.
I have said it before, and I will say it again: I love Vegas, and I find it very easy to use; but I would rather pay more money for a product that had more functionality, and was tested better, and would not drop out from under me when I need it most; because I lose way too much everything when my NLE and platform won’t work, or when key features cease to work, like it has with Sony Vegas.
So how does one really get Sony’s attention in this regard? Because I am not the only one who loves Sony Vegas, but who, out of self-defense, is reluctantly looking at other NLE’s.
Norman Willis
http://www.nazareneisrael.org
servant@nazareneisrael.org
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