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Neoscene and Vegas Question
Hello All,
From a Canon HF G10, I convert AVCHD files with Cineform Neoscene to edit in Vegas. Vegas plays very well with these converted files, and tells me they are in the GoPro-Cineform Codec v7.4.0 format.
I would like to know the best settings for archival quality renders intended for storage and not distribution. In render settings, Vegas gives me the option of rendering to AVI using that same GoPro-Cineform Codec v7.4.0 format.
A few questions: is this a good way to render for archiving? Do I lose much quality when going from AVCHD to AVI to AVI using this codec? What should I do with the options of interleave every .250 seconds, or interleave every frame?
Many thanks,
James -
11 Replies
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[James Dubendorf] “A few questions: is this a good way to render for archiving?”
Yes, absolutely. CineForm is a Digital Intermediary format much like Apple ProRes 422. It is perfect for archiving.
[James Dubendorf] “Do I lose much quality when going from AVCHD to AVI to AVI using this codec?”
No, hardly at all. CineForm is “visually” lossless and some people even say that you will gain quality because it up-samples the color space of your 4:2:0 AVCHD to 4:2:2. You can re-render several times with no visible loss in quality.
[James Dubendorf] “What should I do with the options of interleave every .250 seconds, or interleave every frame?”
I would leave it at every .250. Also note that you can set the quality in the configuration parameters. Vegas defaults to Medium quality which is good for most editing but you can increase it if you want (with larger file sizes as a result).
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Thank you for the reply, John. One more question, if I may. It appears that if I wish to render into AVI, I have the option of using the “Default Template (uncompressed)” or “HD 1080-60i YUV” templates. Both allow me to choose the cineform codec as a video format in the custom settings, and both appear to create similarly sized files. Are there advantages and disadvantages to either?
James
PS Most of my source footage is 60i.
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[James Dubendorf] “It appears that if I wish to render into AVI, I have the option of using the “Default Template (uncompressed)” or “HD 1080-60i YUV” templates. Both allow me to choose the cineform codec as a video format in the custom settings, and both appear to create similarly sized files. Are there advantages and disadvantages to either?”
You want to start with the Default Template but only if your project properties are set correctly. Follow the tutorial on my web site and it will guide you through the process:
Create a CineForm Render Template in Sony Vegas Pro
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
John,
Great tutorial! Just what I needed!
I did a bit more testing. When viewing MTS files from the camera and AVI cineform files of the same footage in windows media player, I feel as though the AVI files are of noticeably lower quality when dealing with subjects moving quickly- a bit blurry/jagged. I compared the footage side by side in the Vegas preview window, but could not see the difference there.
Am I seeing things, or could the differences be real? Are fast motion shots situations where I would want to set the render with high rather than medium encoding quality?
Thanks again for all your help- I want to be sure I understand all this before I start deleting the source material!
James
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[James Dubendorf] “When viewing MTS files from the camera and AVI cineform files of the same footage in windows media player, I feel as though the AVI files are of noticeably lower quality when dealing with subjects moving quickly- a bit blurry/jagged. I compared the footage side by side in the Vegas preview window, but could not see the difference there. “
Check a few media players. Try VLC too. Sometimes media players deal with certain codecs better. There should be no noticeable difference unless your frame rates are different. You didn’t say what frame rate you are shooting at.
Another test is to render both to the same format and see if there is a difference. So render both to Sony AVC and then watch both. There should look identical even in the same media player (because the codec is now the same). You can even render the CineForm back to AVCHD and see how it looks in Windows Media Player.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
Thanks, John. I think I am up to speed now. Your help has been invaluable!
James
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At the risk of saying “just one more question” too many times, I have another one related to this workflow. My goal is to record at 1920×1080 resolution, using the vixia hf g10’s PF30 mode. This is described in the manual as shooting 30 frames per second progressive, recorded as 60i (I’ve heard it called a 60i “shell”?).
My understanding is that I can ask neoscene to “maintain source frame format” while checking the “progressive source” box, and the resulting AVI files will be progressive. Vegas, however, did not recognize them as such, and I had to manually change the properties of each file in my media window.
Is it possible I am doing something wrong in the neoscene conversion? Or am I simply running up against the limits of Vegas Movie Studio- I know, I know, I need the pro version but don’t have it yet!
Best,
JamesPS I am shooting progressive because end products will be destined for web distribution, and I would like the footage to play nicely with still photos and graphics. Is this a solid plan?
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[James Dubendorf] “This is described in the manual as shooting 30 frames per second progressive, recorded as 60i”
That means although it’s recorded progressive, it’s being packaged as 60 interlace fields with each field containing the same temporal information. So it’s stored as interlaced video.
[James Dubendorf] “My understanding is that I can ask neoscene to “maintain source frame format” while checking the “progressive source” box, and the resulting AVI files will be progressive.”
No. It will maintain the frame rate which is 60i. Telling it that the source is progressive won’t change that if the source is not progressive (and your source is not progressive). So it’s correctly maintaining the 60i frame rate like you told it to.
[James Dubendorf] “Vegas, however, did not recognize them as such, and I had to manually change the properties of each file in my media window.”
That’s because they are not progressive. They are interlaced files. (remember it’s being delivered as 60i) If you want it to come in as progressive you need to use the Deinterlace option.
~jr
http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com -
John,
When I deinterlace the Canon PF 30 footage through neoscene, Vegas does not recognize the resulting AVI as progressive- it does, however, recognize some footage from a Go Pro camera as progressive without a problem. If neoscene is indeed able to deinterlace PF 30 footage, shouldn’t Vegas see this? Any ideas on how to diagnose where I’m going wrong?
Most of this material is destined for web distribution, and it will include still photos as well as various text and graphics. To help in the decision of whether to shoot/edit/render in progressive, perhaps my question is this: if editing both 60i and 30p footage within the same project, is it preferable to set project properties and render settings to 60i or 30p (knowing one or the other will clash)?
Thanks for your ongoing efforts!
James
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