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Murch and NLEs from IBC
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[Scott Witthaus] “Why do we care what he edits on or thinks about other NLE’s? “
Because that’s how you learn about the craft that you are part of. Murch, more so than any other notable editor, is as much philosopher as editor, so there’s a value in hearing what he has to say, even if you don’t use the same tools or cut feature films.
It’s also good to identify trends. For example, I don’t get to make the choice of NLEs on most of my projects. So it’s good to see what things might influence changes. If everyone were going to FCPX, you’d see more clients deploy FCPX. But, for now that’s not the case.
The same is true for checking out which cameras top DPs use and why. Or why mixing engineers use different types of consoles, mics or DAWs.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
[Scott Witthaus] “Why do we care what he edits on or thinks about other NLE’s? “
my God – the adherents on this forum sometimes.
https://www.amazon.com/Walter-Murch/e/B000APSYY4
in the blink of an eye is one of the more ludicrously interesting books you could ever read as an editor. Or at least I found it so – Murch found philosophy in editing. he’s a terrifyingly intelligent person. He has a brain roughly the size of a cow. And he never show boats it. I’d listen to Walter Murch reading out the phonebook.
https://vimeo.com/user1590967/videos http://www.ogallchoir.net promo producer/editor.grading/motion graphics
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “in the blink of an eye is one of the more ludicrously interesting books you could ever read as an editor.”
I think the point that you and Oliver are making about him as a philosopher is on the money. We talk all the time here about calcification. Well, Walter is one of the smallest handful of guys who’s willing to try anything. Every project gets evaluated in the context of every tool.
The only other guy in this category is Fincher, who’s admittedly not as publicly philosophical about such things. He moved from Final Cut to Premiere, but the danger in invoking both him and Murch to ratify one’s own choices — “See? I was right! FCPX really IS straight legit for high-level film work” — is yes, true, but the thing that neither Walter nor Fincher feels is legit is sticking with the same thing just because it worked last time.
That’s a luxury that most of us don’t have. We just don’t. And if we do, THAT’s the lesson to take away from both Murch and Fincher — whatever we’re using today, we’re NOT going to be using in a few years. Not because the old thing stopped working, but because there’s something new that works better.
The X-philes will point to that and say “Woo-hoo! Tolja so,” and miss the point. The point is that somebody like Fincher isn’t sticking with it — not necessarily because of any deficiencies, but because of Premiere’s advantages. AS AN EXAMPLE. Not saying that Premiere is better for you…
…but if we’re going to talk about lessons to learn from Walter or David or anyone else, let’s be clear on the lessons. Even if you’ve adapted to X or anything else, this step in your development isn’t complete until you adapt to the next thing.
Never forget: the first NLE that Walter “legitimized” was Avid Film Composer. The NEXT one that he legitimizes has perhaps not been invented yet.
So c’mon kids! Don’t settle on X forever! Follow the example of the much more flexible OLD GUY and keep looking for the NEXT thing. LOL
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Which again, might not be a luxury for you, or more important, might not seem fun.
As has been noted here many times, X-philes tend to talk about non-X-ers as having personality deficiencies of some sort (set in their ways, don’t get it, etc) without acknowledging that for an equal number of people, chasing the next new thing is every bit as deficient, and arguably more inefficient.
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The last thing I’ll note about caring about what other people do: it’s human. It’s built into us since the days when we first began forming tribes. Just as wise elders look for the next new thing (or place to live, or, yes, tool to use), the fact is that people who follow the lead of communal wisdom have traditionally been the ones to live to tell the tale.
After all, the wise elder in question might be Steve Jobs or Tim Cook, neither of whom were/are all that old, but elders nonetheless.
Variations abound, and innovation becomes tradition, and the cycle continues — but the primary thrust of the human social evolutionary imperative has been written into our genes for 3 million years.
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Where’s “3 million” coming from? I’m picking Australopithecus afarensis as my starting point, just because that’s the oldest one whose name I can remember.
Even if your worldview leads you to some Babylon-ish starting point with no room for biological evolution, the social evolutionary imperative is the same. Your mileage may vary, but the drive doesn’t.
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My favorite story along these lines, as many of my favorite stories are, is about my wife. A truly rock and roll girl, she skipped her prom to go see Led Zeppelin on the 77 Tour of the Americas. Best decision of her life I think. Marrying me is maybe third or fourth on the list, but this is why marrying her is #1 on mine.
She had no respect at all for anyone whose attachment to Zeppelin was for Robert Plant. She was all about Jimmy Page from the instant she heard him in 1969. But when it came time to choose a guitar for herself, she chose the Les Paul Junior that Pete Townshend first played on Who’s Next in 1971. (He still has it, btw.)
But she didn’t choose it because Pete played it, per se.
Jimmy was a wizard who bent space and time to his will, but Pete spoke to the simultaneous isolation and quest for insight that drove her too. Jimmy was the GUITARIST she admired more, but even more than sharing Pete’s inner demons and angels, at the end of the day, she responded to the roar that Pete was uniquely making, and wanted to likewise roar.
Not that another guitar couldn’t make a proper racket of course. Certainly not that this was the only guitar Pete played. It wasn’t even his primary guitar. But she started with the SOUND she was looking for, spent time with her fingers on the frets of a lot of different guitars, and kept coming back to the Gibsons.
She didn’t want a lot of folderol, so she went with the Junior for the same reason Pete did: one pickup, so stop talking, stay out of my way, I’m spending my time focused on what I’m playing instead of finessing the gear, and I’m turning it the fug up.
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And THAT’s why we care what Walter says. That’s why we read stories about editors or VFX artists at the COW or watch behind the scenes featurettes. We want to explore the passions that drive the masters, to see what their quest can tell us about our own.
We eventually still have to put our own fingers on the frets, but the roots of this drive are in a part of our humanity that existed millions of years before our race formed its first words.
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(And if Bill or anyone else is still reading this far, I have a LOT more to say about guitars as analogues to choosing NLEs, and arguments about guitars being a thousand times hotter than anything here, maybe hotter than anything you can even imagine. LOL
Politics? Religion? Feh. Ask a roomful of guitarists about the opening chord of “A Hard Day’s Night” and watch the dugouts empty.)
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I enjoyed your epic tome there Tim…
In response to Scott’s question, I’d like to add… By paying attention to highly successful individuals, especially those in our own industry, same sector or not, we increase our knowledge and understanding, and though there is no guarantee, we hopefully improve our chances for greater success. The book, The Habits of Highly Succesful People comes to mind…
David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist & Workflow Consultant
David Weiss Productions
Los AngelesDavid is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.
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[Tim Wilson] “The only other guy in this category is Fincher, who’s admittedly not as publicly philosophical about such things. He moved from Final Cut to Premiere, but the danger in invoking both him and Murch to ratify one’s own choices — “See? I was right! FCPX really IS straight legit for high-level film work” — is yes, true, but the thing that neither Walter nor Fincher feels is legit is sticking with the same thing just because it worked last time.”
Fincher was also on the early side of using digital cameras. I believe Zodiac in 2007 was his first time using the Viper. At a panel discussion I was at a few years ago one of the panelists was an AE that has worked on a number of Fincher’s films and he talked about how the workflow is always evolving as new tech comes out. Going back to one of your points, PPro for Fincher (and Murch) certainly won’t be the last NLE they use.
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[David Lawrence] ”
We had a nice conversation about this in 2011 😉
NLEs, DAWs, Tracks and Audio-centric Workflows — Continuing the Conversation…
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/16886Nice little trip down memory lane. Thanks David L.
Relevant to this discussion as Tim has stated is Murch’s sound background. Of course he carries that sensibility into picture editing and I am not the least bit surprised he favours a track based NLE, simply because he knows that it is a better approach for complicated sound workflows. In the old thread I think I made the point that I wondered how magnetic timeline plus roles could ever hope to mirror the complex layering of mix processing that a clip, track, bus & master bus approach can give. Here we are these years later and many editors are still hoping Roles can be augmented by sub roles and roles based plugins/mix automation.
But X remains a tool with limitations in audio processing that an editor like Murch finds a deal breaker. Meanwhile Resolve pops out their first serious attempt at a finishing tool and gives, tracks & buses with VST plugins. Magnetic timeline with roles may be one Apple patented idea that no-one else will bother licensing.
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[Steve Connor] “Seriously, FCPX development has been very steady but in terms of adding features it’s not in the same league as PPro”
As it should be I think. Once they went to that subscription, they had to really step up their game.
X is one and done so far, so they need to outpace Apple to justify that rental fee or folks might bulk.
You have to make that rental plan worth it to people, and so far it’s working for many.
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Yeah,
The changes in NLEs will affect a few of us for better or worse.
I’m still convinced the actual damage being done to ALL of us is actually the changing landscape of MONEY flow that Adobe has elected (their legal option) to be an early leader in.
In Rock and Roll, Saul Zance famously royally screwed John Fogerty of Creedence Clearwater Revival by diverting his attention from the money play while keeping the discussion on the bands personnel dynamics – so much so that after the dust settled Fogerty couldn’t even publicaly preform the many huge hit songs he had written for decades without gaulingly crawling to his enemy for permission.
Oddly, I was reading this expose of how the modern “for profit” private prison industry soaks inmates for massively overpriced phone calls. Imagine my surprise when I ran across this quote:
Reference: Inside the Shadowy Business of Prison Phone Calls
An IBTimes investigation into the secretive world of selling phone calls to inmates and their families.
ERIC MARKOWITZ(Excerpt from the long article)
How Their Business Is Changing
Though some may consider it an unsavory business, the prison technology industry appears to be an attractive bet for investors.
In 2013, Abry Partners of Boston bought a major stake in Securus. One of the private equity group’s core values is to invest in high-growth businesses that have “predictable, recurring revenues — such as subscription-like businesses with high customer retention rates.”
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Let’s be clear here. I am NOT in any way saying that subscription is bad per se, and definitely not that any particular company is necessarily bad for employing it. There are plenty of companies that deploy it in a way that also respects customers wants and needs. I AM saying that subscription is a rapidly growing corporate “thing” that many consider a financial power play designed to shift economic leverage away from consumers and to the businesses that make it mandatory. And I find that unacceptable.While we debate the edit functions – the executives are delighted. Their real play is sticky subscription lock in. Period. Could they provide options? Sure. Will they? Don’t hold your breath. The model isn’t about the product. It’s about the subscription model period.
Others will surely disagree and find nothing wrong with it.
But just like the music industry history is rife with business people screwing artists. There ARE in my opinions lessons there to take as we move forward in the creative arts.FWIW.
Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Oliver Peters] “The same is true for checking out which cameras top DPs use and why. Or why mixing engineers use different types of consoles, mics or DAWs.”
Yeah, but you’ve got to admit it’s different now, Oliver. There used to be a chasm between the top end and the low end in performance. Now the top end is slowly coming down (Panavision to Red/Alexa) while the low end has made AMAZING strides. I was on my weekly Google Hangout with my global production and editing friends and Iain in Australia was demoing his iPhone 6 on a $299 hand-held 3-axis gimbal that he bought last week off Amazon for US $299. The shots were totally stunning. As smooth as Garrett running his original Steadicam at NAB.
Point isn’t that the aspirational high end isn’t still viable or necessary. It always will be. It’s more that the bottom has encroached to a massive degree. A Sennheiser MK2 into an iPod touch via the Apogee converter – produces a way better sound file than what my $2500 Otari half-track could do in the 80s.
Tech marches on and all.Know someone who teaches video editing in elementary school, high school or college? Tell them to check out http://www.StartEditingNow.com – video editing curriculum complete with licensed practice content.
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[Aindreas Gallagher] “my God – the adherents on this forum sometimes. “
My sentiments exactly, but not directed at Scott in this case. Yep looking’ at you, AG…and DRW, and the rest of the old men in the balcony yelling at the Muppets. (NB: I’m almost an old man myself, so let’s not get hung up on the age thing.)
Murch’s book is a great read. Lots of very wise and thoughtful things to say about the art and craft of editing.
Not so much to say about Avid vs. FCP7 or tracks vs. the alleged horrors of FCP X.Trying to frame his book or his talks as evidence of the failings of X is absurd. He’s a great editor. Not a platform whore.
As far as his complex audio mixes in the editing process…that’s his thing. He’s comfortable working with audio in a traditional tracks structure. He finds Avid’s 24 track limit to be…well, limiting. On the other hand, he’s never worked in X, either in audio or video. So what can we infer from this? Just that he’s never worked in X and so has no real basis to judge the good or bad of the so-called “trackless” methodology.
Someone earlier (Andrew?) pointed out that the 99 (or whatever) tracks available in FCP Legacy, which Murch used so effectively for his complex audio mixes, disappeared in X. True. The tracks disappeared. Did the ability to do complex mixes also disappear in X? Says who? Why would anyone say that? Seriously? Complex mixes are not possible in X? Nonsense. Complex multi-track mixes are not possible, duh, because no tracks, in the conventional sense. Nevertheless, I’m certain if Walter Murch decided to learn FCPX, he’d do the same kind of complex mixes. Because that’s what he does.
Honestly, your guys and your track fetish are really getting tiresome. Even in a debate forum.
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