More gasoline on the fire

[Walter Soyka]

[Jeremy Garchow] “I need a compelling reason to switch to pcs. No one has given it to me.”

Likewise, I needed a compelling reason to stay exclusively on Macs. Apple couldn’t give me one.

You carefully considered a platform switch, and you dismissed it, because it is legitimately not the best choice for you right now.

You and I have different needs, so why wouldn’t we have different solutions?

I’ve found that a PC workstation is a viable option for creative production work. That doesn’t mean it’s the best solution for everyone, as you show. All I’m suggesting is that a PC workstation running Windows can be a good solution worth examining for some of us here who would have not considered PCs a year or two ago.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Frank Gothmann] “I don’t. And because of that I wouldn’t buy this machine. How is this different from an Avid turnkey system, ie. z820 with Nitris hardware? You obviously wouldn’t buy one of those if you had no intention of using MC or Symphony.

But it is nevertheless just a base z820 with a additional components. Nothing else is special there which is my point. A worksation is supposed to flexible and versatile, adding some stuff makes is perfect for something specific without limiting possiblities for other areas via design choice that might cause just that.”

Frank, I get it.

We are taking TekServe and Windows.

I find it ironic that people are looking down at Mac for being a closed system, and the alternatives that are being shown are more closed systems with a swappable GPU which you can do with a Mac, there are more limits, but you can still do it and the Mac and Nvidia wall is slowly being rippe down (have a look at Apple’s newest computer).

People say they aren’t tied to one vendor on PCs, but when you get right down to it, you are. You have some more options, but when you buy and commit to an NLE, you are tied to that. Resolve ties you to Decklink, you are tied to windows, that boot drive is tied to that machine, those motherboard drivers will work on that motherboard, as “open” as Adobe, the more you press that system and need to step out of an adobe app, the more you are tied. If you want SDI out of speed grade, you are tied to an extremely expensive Nvidia GPU.

So, while people might perceive PCs as being more open, I challenge you to prove it.

I’m not saying there’s merit to owning a faster PC where I can swap a GPU in three years, that does not make it a “better” decision. More flexible? Perhaps, but that doesnt make it all better considering I can run everything I want and more on a Mac including windows, and a few programs that are currently Mac only.

Then there’s (wait for it) Thunderbolt. On a Mac, I can swap “PCIe” device by swapping a cable. This means I can use AJA for all things capture and Smoke, and blackmagic for Resolve if I so choose.

Truly, the only missing piece as I see it on Macs is GPU and CPU speed. That’s fairly important, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not everything.

Notice I didn’t even mention FCPX until right now. I guess I see pcs as being more open as well as I can see through the wool over my starry Mac eyes.

Jeremy

[Walter Soyka]

[Jeremy Garchow] “It should be called the DIT, but that seems even more limiting than red only post.”

How do all the partners in this benefit?

A turnkey system like this with such a narrowly targeted niche audience is like training wheels for Tekserve. They’re a VAR, but Apple isn’t giving them much opportunity to add value. They’re new to Windows. By selling this machine, they get to dip their toe in before they dive. They can see the whole channel, from a broader relationship with HP as a supplier, to their ability to sell PCs to a Mac crowd, to their customer’s support needs. Sell a little, learn a lot. They can beta test their own supply, sales and support systems before taking them into production with other workstation options.

Shooting RED requires a specific post workflow with some extra steps that other competing cameras do not. This gives RED a legitimate presence, both for on-set support and in post, instead of requiring their customers to roll their own systems from a collection of DIY parts.

HP has been aggressively targeting the DCC (digital content creation) market for years with the Z-series of workstation. This is a chance for them to continue pushing for that market at Apple’s expense.]

Looks like opportunities for wins all around.

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Herb Sevush]

[Jeremy Garchow] “I find it ironic that people are looking down at Mac for being a closed system, and the alternatives that are being shown are more closed systems with a swappable GPU which you can do with a Mac, there are more limits, but you can still do it and the Mac and Nvidia wall is slowly being rippe down (have a look at Apple’s newest computer).”

So get me my sandy bridge xeons and PICe 3 on a Mac and we’ll call it a day.

[Jeremy Garchow] ” I guess I see pcs as being more open as well as I can see through the wool over my starry Mac eyes. “

If Dell fails, next time I need a computer it doesn’t change my workflow at all, I buy from someone else. That’s why I feel free to buy from small VAR’s. If my computer dies and they have gone out of business, I get another computer from another VAR and I don’t miss a beat. As new technology comes around if my computer maker doesn’t grow in the direction I like I change to someone who does and in a day I can swap out computers and be up and running.

Is that the openness you get with Apple – they don’t like Blu-Ray, no blu-ray. They don’t like USB3, you don’t get USB3. They want to skip a generation of Xeons, well you can just wait. You want Cuda – well Cuda this.

Yes, on PCs you can’t swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer. That’s little to pay for getting the computer you want when you want it. Would that I had that option these past few months.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Walter Soyka]

[Herb Sevush] “Yes, on PCs you can’t swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer.”

Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac’s drive with any regularity?

After you boot, what do you do? Won’t serialized applications fail, since they’ll be authorized for a different Mac?

Is there a reason why a cloned drive isn’t good enough that I’m not seeing?

Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events

[Herb Sevush]

[Walter Soyka] “Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac’s drive with any regularity? After you boot, what do you do? Won’t serialized applications fail, since they’ll be authorized for a different Mac?”

When I got my new Mac I just popped the drive from my old one and threw it in and set it as the startup drive. No authorization problems yet. I don’t doubt that the same could be done with a cloned drive – isn’t that why they call it a clone?

As for PC’s I was always under the impression that you couldn’t do that with windows, although I haven’t tried it lately.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Herb Sevush] “If Dell fails, next time I need a computer it doesn’t change my workflow at all, I buy from someone else. That’s why I feel free to buy from small VAR’s. If my computer dies and they have gone out of business, I get another computer from another VAR and I don’t miss a beat. As new technology comes around if my computer maker doesn’t grow in the direction I like I change to someone who does and in a day I can swap out computers and be up and running.

Is that the openness you get with Apple – they don’t like Blu-Ray, no blu-ray. They don’t like USB3, you don’t get USB3. They want to skip a generation of Xeons, well you can just wait. You want Cuda – well Cuda this.

Yes, on PCs you can’t swap out your boot drive, and you have to re-install things when going from computer to computer. That’s little to pay for getting the computer you want when you want it. Would that I had that option these past few months.”

This is a gross over exaggeration. I know what you’re saying in that all the software and hardware will translate, but it would still cost you lots of time and money as will a switch from Mac to PC, as it would to go from Dell to HP.

Yes, on the desktop, Apple is currently “behind”, but you can’t tell me that PCs are more open. You buy something, you are tied to it, and with PCs you are tied just as much as you are to Macs.

It’s all on how you look at it. If CPu and GPU speed are the utmost of concern, then PCs win (I have been making this argument for a very long time now), but you can actually do more with a cross platform workflow on a Mac than you can with a PC.

I understand the merits of going to PC, but please stop lying and say it’s more open because I can spin it the same way for Macs.

BluRay and USB3 are available on a Mac if you need them.

I am just looking for compelling reasons, Herb.

And like you, the software is keeping me on the Mac. In order for you to switch to PC, doesn’t Avid or Adobe or someone have to make multicam as good if not better than FCP7? So what are you waiting on? Doesn’t that mean that you might not get what you want? Aren’t you waiting around for a potential future development too? Why can’t Avid deliver? Or Adobe? Or Lightworks? When? When will they deliver? DO you have a roadmap for that? Are you scared of change even though you might be moving to an inferior system that runs really f*cking fast and can ray trace the crap out of a logo?

Then, won’t you be just as tied whether you want to see it that way or not?

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Walter Soyka] “Likewise, I needed a compelling reason to stay exclusively on Macs. Apple couldn’t give me one.

You carefully considered a platform switch, and you dismissed it, because it is legitimately not the best choice for you right now.

You and I have different needs, so why wouldn’t we have different solutions?

I’ve found that a PC workstation is a viable option for creative production work. That doesn’t mean it’s the best solution for everyone, as you show. All I’m suggesting is that a PC workstation running Windows can be a good solution worth examining for some of us here who would have not considered PCs a year or two ago.”

And this is fine, Walter. It’s a decision.

I am tried of people saying that PCs are more open. You have a few more options, but the handcuffs are on pretty quick once you click that buy button, especially when you start actually using the software and choose PCIe hardware.

By the way, PCs are not totally dismissed here. So far, the compelling reason isn’t there.

I am actively searching for it. I get the CPU/GPU debate. PCs win and according to me (ha!), always have, in this regard, but is that the compelling reason?

Jeremy

[Jeremy Garchow]

[Walter Soyka] “Does anyone actually boot from a different model Mac’s drive with any regularity?

After you boot, what do you do? Won’t serialized applications fail, since they’ll be authorized for a different Mac?

Is there a reason why a cloned drive isn’t good enough that I’m not seeing?”

Depends on how they are serialized. If serialized to hardware such an en0, then yes, otherwise, no.

I boot to troubleshoot, or repair permissions, or boot from a different OS.

I boot to clone from one system to another.

If you get a new Mac and need to roll back the system but are firmware updated out of it, you can simply add the old hard drive in the new Mac and it boots.

It’s mostly for system upgrade/maintenance/OS installs. I do it a lot, but at this stage, I have a lot of “test disks” to test all this new stuff. Since Windows 7 is good for eight more years, PCs probably won’t need this functionality. 🙂

[Herb Sevush]

[Jeremy Garchow] “This is a gross over exaggeration”

No it is not. With PCs I can change computers and manufacturers and be up in a day. I’ve done it, no problem, and it’s easier now than ever before.

[Jeremy Garchow] “t it would still cost you lots of time and money as will a switch from Mac to PC, as it would to go from Dell to HP. “

That is not even remotely true. There are many things I do that are not cross platform and will be very time consuming to change. My LTO software is non windows, I’m going to have to set up a Linux boot drive just to deal with backups. My entire raid will have to be erased and reformatted going to PC. None of that would be necessary going from Dell to HP.

[Jeremy Garchow] “I am just looking for compelling reasons, Herb.”

You won’t get your compelling reason from me. I’m giving you my compelling reasons.

[Jeremy Garchow] “In order for you to switch to PC, doesn’t Avid or Adobe or someone have to make multicam as good if not better than FCP7? So what are you waiting on? Doesn’t that mean that you might not get what you want? Aren’t you waiting around for a potential future development too? “

Avid’s multicam is every bit as good as FCP7, always has been. What has me stuck in the Mac ecosystem right now is ProRes. We currently shoot to KiPros which encode to quicktime wrapped ProRes. While KiPros can also encode quicktime wrapped DNxHD neither will run that smoothly on an Avid, AMA not withstanding. The idea of re-wrapping 12 – 15 Terrabytes of material to MXF is not something I want to do. Also I have some deliverables that are currently ProRes. So for the moment I’m stuck on a Mac.

As for my future, I spoke to an AJA rep that was at the Adobe Roadshow and he assured me that the new rack mount KiPro’s will be able to record to MXF DNxHD within a year. The moment that becomes true I will switch to Avid, still on a MAC to handle my deliverables and then switch to PC the next time I need a computer upgrade. This is my “roadmap” – something else may seduce me away, but at least it’s something I can plan towards. Of course I know roadmaps and planning is not the Apple way, but I still think it’s a good practice.

[Jeremy Garchow] “DO you have a roadmap for that? Are you scared of change even though you might be moving to an inferior system that runs really f*cking fast and can ray trace the crap out of a logo? Then, won’t you be just as tied whether you want to see it that way or not?”

Once I’ve switched to Avid on a PC in the future I will have my choice of 5 NLE’s to choose from and as many computer manufacturers as I can tolerate. The thing that ties me most is codec and backwards compatibility of old programs – since all the PC NLE’s live in a non-magnetic world, compatibility isn’t as much an issue. As for codecs – here’s hoping that uncompressed HD will be in all of our futures.

Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
—————————
nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf