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More gasoline on the fire
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I am tried of people saying that PCs are more open. You have a few more options, but the handcuffs are on pretty quick once you click that buy button, especially when you start actually using the software and choose PCIe hardware.”
Practically speaking, I’m with you here.
Our workflows certainly tie us down somewhere. I can bounce back and forth between a PC and Mac all day, but I’m still relying on Adobe and Maxon software that would not be so easily replaced.
But that’s not really how I read the “PCs are more open” line — to me, that’s about more interchangeable choices from a market of options. I guess my read on that is quite a bit narrower than your broader holistic workflow perspective. If the hardware doesn’t really figure in the decision, then having more open hardware choices won’t provide any benefit.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
Ok, Herb.
I hope that all the assurance you have received for things being developed in the future actually does come true. None of this is easy, and in my mind switching to a PC just means you are trading one locked system for another when you start to decide on an NLE package and hardware. That is my whole point.
Sure, there are more options on a PC, but to me that doesn’t necessarily make my job an easier or better it just makes more decisions.
[Herb Sevush] “No it is not. With PCs I can change computers and manufacturers and be up in a day. I’ve done it, no problem, and it’s easier now than ever before.
“You would still have to reinstall everything, right?
[Herb Sevush] “That is not even remotely true. There are many things I do that are not cross platform and will be very time consuming to change. My LTO software is non windows, I’m going to have to set up a Linux boot drive just to deal with backups. My entire raid will have to be erased and reformatted going to PC. None of that would be necessary going from Dell to HP. “
I remember talking to you about LTO and how Cache-A was more expensive, but didn’t lock you to software as it’s an appliance. Can’t you use a cheap mac to run your backups? Macs can read windows storage just fine (but I wouldn’t dare call that flexible, not in this crowd).
Yes, storage will have to be reformatted, and that can take a long while, true.
[Herb Sevush] “So for the moment I’m stuck on a Mac.”
Really, you’re stuck with ProRes. That’s valid. But if you wanted to, you could switch. It would suck and take a lot of time, but you could do it. Then you’d be stuck with DNxHD and the rather inflexible implementation of Avid’s MXF structure. It’s a trade-off. As far as a ProRes deliverable, the KiPros are perfect for that.
[Herb Sevush] “Once I’ve switched to Avid on a PC in the future I will have my choice of 5 NLE’s to choose from and as many computer manufacturers as I can tolerate. The thing that ties me most is codec and backwards compatibility of old programs – since all the PC NLE’s live in a non-magnetic world, compatibility isn’t as much an issue. As for codecs – here’s hoping that uncompressed HD will be in all of our futures.”
You have the same choices on a Mac mostly, plus a few more. As of today, NLE choice has no advantage on Windows or Mac if you are skipping FCPX.
Jeremy
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I understand the merits of going to PC, but please stop lying and say it’s more open because I can spin it the same way for Macs.
“I’m sorry, Jeremy. No one is lying to you. I don’t know why you can’t understand what people mean by “more open” but it is very clear to most of us who have spent any time in the Windows world. There are many joys to the Mac, but one of my biggest frustrations since moving to the platform a decade ago, is how profoundly limited my choices on it are. I don’t know if it is a semantics issue, or not, but I’m having a really hard time understanding your position here.
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[Chris Harlan] “I don’t know if it is a semantics issue, or not, but I’m having a really hard time understanding your position here.”
I think I understand him — he’s saying that the claim that PCs are more open is disingenuous because additional hardware choices don’t result in a more open workflow.
It doesn’t matter if he buys a Mac or a PC, he’s still committed to a specific NLE, a specific compositor, a specific color grading application — each of which may require specific support hardware.
In the local sense of hardware choice, I understand and agree with you and Herb. In the global sense of workflow, Jeremy’s talking sense: you are still eventually tied to something, regardless of which platform you’re on.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
It’s clear, Chris, I truly don’t get it. Sorry to waste yours and everyone’s time.
I just wish everyone would stop pointing to faster, and show me better.
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[Walter Soyka] “In the local sense of hardware choice, I understand and agree with you and Herb. In the global sense of workflow, Jeremy’s talking sense: you are still eventually tied to something, regardless of which platform you’re on.
“Well, as Bob Dylan is fond of singing “We’ve all got to serve somebody.” This all seems to be a bit of a semantical dust up.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “It’s clear, Chris, I truly don’t get it. Sorry to waste yours and everyone’s time.”
Its not that. I just don’t think Herb is lying to you.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I just wish everyone would stop pointing to faster, and show me better.”
Jeremy, the only person who can show you better is you. No reason you HAVE to change platforms. I’m still all Mac and will probably be that way for a while, and I think very fondly of PCs and Windows. I DO have an escape route in terms of what I’ve been buying, and I like both Premiere and Avid quite a bit, so its very possible that my next CPU purchase will be a PC, though it is possible that a redesigned iMac could sway me. Depending on business, of course, whatever it is will probably be before next year’s mystery machine makes its debut. I was ready for a new Mac Pro last December, though my 2008 is still chugging away nicely (touch wood.) I ended up with the last of the 17″ Macbook Pros instead, and am very happy with it. Is it the last Mac I’ll buy? Who knows.
What I have lost over the last year is my complacency. I had become overly settled in the Apple camp, both mentally and physically. Now that I’m aware of that and am taking measures to deal with it, I feel quite a bit more comfortable.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I hope that all the assurance you have received for things being developed in the future actually does come true.”
Me too. If not, I’ve already delayed my decision making for a year, hopefully something else will come along.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Sure, there are more options on a PC, but to me that doesn’t necessarily make my job an easier or better it just makes more decisions.”
Just my personality, but I always opt for more choices vs fewer options. I’m claustrophobic (really), I hate the feeling of being trapped.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I remember talking to you about LTO and how Cache-A was more expensive, but didn’t lock you to software as it’s an appliance. Can’t you use a cheap mac to run your backups? Macs can read windows storage just fine “
I can use an older Mac but that means I’m transferring files over ethernet, which would really slow things down. The Linux boot drive would see both my LTO and my drive on the same system. This is all theoretical of course so I do have the ethernet to the Mac as a fallback.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Really, you’re stuck with ProRes. That’s valid. But if you wanted to, you could switch. It would suck and take a lot of time, but you could do it. Then you’d be stuck with DNxHD and the rather inflexible implementation of Avid’s MXF structure.”
The difference is MXF DNxHD has cross platform encoding, ProRes does not.
[Jeremy Garchow] “As far as a ProRes deliverable, the KiPros are perfect for that.”
The KiPros are part of the production package, I don’t own them and spending 4K just to enable ProRes on a PC seems a bit much.
OT but I have to say I flat out love them KiPros. I don’t know why but nobody is even trying to compete with them as a studio production tool. They are the only digital recorder that allows for clip naming and recording of multiple KiPros from a command computer. We wouldn’t be shooting tapeless at all if not for them.
[Jeremy Garchow] “You have the same choices on a Mac mostly, plus a few more.”
Edius and Vegas Pro are Windows only. I’m actually very intrigued by Edius; if it’s multicam function wasn’t so limited it would be a contender for me.
And finally, while I’m not trying to convince you, or anyone else that you should switch to windows. I feel very comfortable going that route, and after this past year I am not comfortable at all being under Apple’s thumb, but that’s strictly from my own specific workflow and background. In the meantime I will be spending at least this next year cutting on Legend ™ – it still seems to get the job done.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf -
To be clear, I am not accusing Herb, or any one person of lying.
I want Pr to work so badly. The most frustrating part of Pr to me is that it looks and feels just like FCP7, right up until it doesn’t, and then things get weird.
So if I am going to switch, and CS6 is the reason, it’s not there so I might as well continue working on Macs and hobble until my foot falls off and I need a prosthetic.
The same problems had on Macs will be the same problems on Windows, they will just happen faster and they will be ray traced.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “I want Pr to work so badly. The most frustrating part of Pr to me is that it looks and feels just like FCP7, right up until it doesn’t, and then things get weird.”
Agreed. Never have I wanted a program to work so much and then be disappointed to watch as it gets real close and then fails. It’s like watching the Jets blow the playoffs year after year. They seem to be so busy patting themselves on the back for how far they’ve come that I’m not sure they see how far they still have to go.
[Jeremy Garchow] “I might as well continue working on Macs and hobble until my foot falls off and I need a prosthetic. The same problems had on Macs will be the same problems on Windows, they will just happen faster … “
Which is how we find ourselves still working with Legend ™.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions
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nothin’ attached to nothin’
“Deciding the spine is the process of editing” F. Bieberkopf
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