-
Michael Cioni of Lightiron talking about Metadata, Hollywood, FCP X, and Premier.
-
[Jeremy Garchow] “But to Bill’s point, I don’t think that metadata needs to be reserved for feature films. Live streaming dailies maybe, but not metadata on the whole. FCPX does a good job of simple things like sorting and displaying liked or disliked clips very easily.”
[Bill Davis] “Metadata and keywords in X aren’t just there to allow Cioni to design better systems. They’re there to help all of us to design what WE need as well. Even if what you need is a smarter way to edit events like Bar Mitzvas or Corporate info videos, or HD Web ads or scientific video reports…”
I 100% completely agree. Of course metadata isn’t reserved for feature films, and even though Michael’s video was about a very specific tool (his software) doing a very specific workflow (scripted film/tv) there is general information in there that is applicable to a wide variety of situations.
Maybe I’m strange, but I’m a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things. Part of it is just a desire to learn new things and part of it is because many times I figure out ways to improve my workflow by talking with people that work in completely different facets of the industry than myself.
-
[Andrew Kimery] “Maybe I’m strange, but I’m a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things. “
Not at all, and it’s why I like hanging around here too. I am always looking for new (and hopefully better) ways to do things.
Put another way, if you’re strange, I am also strange, *but people probably already know that about me.
*edit
-
[Andrew Kimery] “Maybe I’m strange, but I’m a bit of a workflow junky (I could spend hours talking about it) so I love hearing about how other people do things.”
With apologies to Vince Lombardi…
Workflow isn’t everything. It’s the only thing.
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
From my perspective it is a lead pipe cinch that smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata.
Tim
-
[Oliver Peters] “it doesn’t track or support any greater amount of metadata than many other NLEs, notably Media Composer”
Really? Well, on an aside, I’m not speaking exclusively of what comes in, but just as much about what is possible or can be added/edited/created/used AFTER import and in general, nor was there mention of *every* NLE, but rather specific ones. But show me where you find any or all of the infos pertaining to color profile, camera ID, manufacturer infos, date of import of a clip, lyricist for an audio track, tempo, key and/or time signature, which encoding app was used, camera angle and/or name, copyright infos, ISO speeds etc. etc. etc. in PPro (which has a lot of that, yes) let alone in Avid. I don’t know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn’t know where to look… but I also don’t believe it even has it to begin with.
And yes, the HOW is 200% more important than the IF imho. And that’s another aspect that I think X has cornered compared to anyone else at the moment.
But then better/comparable metadata support for PPro has only now been added with the most recent update with the addition of XMP. PPro is certainly moving up as far as that’s concerned (Avid?). Metadata information and workflows that X has had access to for nearly four years running nonetheless.
[Oliver Peters] “If Avid wanted to expand the capabilities of the Find function, they could certainly do so. Just more engineering time, but the foundation is there.”
How is that relevant to Avid’s metadata capabilities today i.e. the discussion? But even if we were talking about “coulda/shoulda/woulda” and the respective foundations they stand upon, I would guess that Apple and X are also in a much better position than Avid going forward, too, and we could assume and hypothesize all day long in all different directions as far as that’s concerned.
[TImothy Auld] “smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata.
My previous point exactly, yes, thank you. No idea why it needed any explaining.
– RK
-
[TImothy Auld] “From my perspective it is a lead pipe cinch that smaller operations are more likely to effectively use metadata.”
Canned metadata (like in FCP X), certainly. But at the moment, it’s the bigger facilities who can develop the custom tools to really effectively exploit metadata throughout an entire production pipeline. This is an area ripe for standardization. SMPTE and VES are working toward this. So is Adobe with XMP.
I feel we are almost narrowing the discussion of metadata by looking at it from the FCP X context. Check out this interview Tim did with David Stump, ASC and Gary Adcock, waaaaaaay back in 2008:
https://library.creativecow.net/stump_dave/metadata/1
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Robin S. Kurz] “And yes, the HOW is 200% more important than the IF imho. And that’s another aspect that I think X has cornered compared to anyone else at the moment.”
How do you actually use metadata (beyond shot-logging) in an editorial context in the real world?
(Question, not an argument.)
[Robin S. Kurz] “But then better/comparable metadata support for PPro has only now been added with the most recent update with the addition of XMP. PPro is certainly moving up as far as that’s concerned (Avid?). Metadata information and workflows that X has had access to for nearly four years running nonetheless.”
Search bins and advanced timeline search are new in October, but XMP support has been in Premiere Pro since CS4, back in 2008. There’s been a lot you could do with metadata from the project panel, for a long time.
FCP X has the most obvious metadata implementation and some really rich tools for exploiting metadata in editorial, but editorial search/sort is not the only value of metadata in a production.
(Argument, not a question.)
Walter Soyka
Designer & Mad Scientist at Keen Live [link]
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
@keenlive | RenderBreak [blog] | Profile [LinkedIn] -
[Walter Soyka] “I feel we are almost narrowing the discussion of metadata by looking at it from the FCP X context. Check out this interview Tim did with David Stump, ASC and Gary Adcock, waaaaaaay back in 2008:”
The lone comment on the article from 5 years ago:
“Really interesting article. I can see the day when the encoders will be wireless as well, feeding the metadata into post equipment via the internet as the scene is being shot. Thanks.”
The post is from the past, about a then possible future, and illuminating what is now the present:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY_Ry8J_jdw
-
[Robin S. Kurz] “But show me where you find any or all of the infos pertaining to color profile, camera ID, manufacturer infos, date of import of a clip, lyricist for an audio track, tempo, key and/or time signature, which encoding app was used, camera angle and/or name, copyright infos, ISO speeds etc. etc. etc. in PPro (which has a lot of that, yes) let alone in Avid. I don’t know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn’t know where to look… but I also don’t believe it even has it to begin with.”
Here’s a sample of some of the metadata that Avid sees from the Arri camera, and this barely scratches the surface.
I have multiple bin views set up for specific editorial actions (logging/editing/conforming, etc…). So I can choose to see just take/framing/description/comments/location, etc…, then another that tells me frame rate/resolution/codec/CDL info, etc… It’s pretty powerful if you spend a little time getting to know it and setting it up. Plus it’s sortable and searchable.
Now in regards to music, I don’t know if you can show lyricist, tempo, key, etc… Does FCPX show all of that for every music track it brings it? That’s pretty slick if it does. But I assume if that info isn’t embedded in the audio track it won’t be available, will it? You’d have to add it manually.
—————-
Michael Hancock
Editor -
[Robin S. Kurz] ” I don’t know Avid in its latest incarnation so wouldn’t know where to look… but I also don’t believe it even has it to begin with.”
dude, you should probably check again. Avid has had tons of metadata support for a long long time, and recently the search/find functions has been updated to exploit it better, not to mention the recent addition of favorites bins which work great.
you can also add anything you want with custom columns like your tempo,lyricist, etc and then save that as a custom bin which is also searchable and has been available for as long as i can remember.
Just an FYI.
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up