Lets get RAID to the point.

[Matt Geier]

Hi Jack,

A little info on the HDCAM streams:
The main competitor to HDCAM is DVCPRO HD format offered by Panasonic. It uses a similar compression scheme and bitrates ranging from 40 Mbit/s to 100 Mbit/s depending on frame rate.

What that means is that your bandwidth per stream can vary between 5MB/sec and 13MB/sec conservatively.

Don’t get caught up in just bandwidth however because RAIDS will all perform in REAL TIME differently depending on what you are doing. (That means even if you think you’re getting a RAID to support the MB/sec, it may not support the REAL TIME streaming for Final Cut etc, in the same way….)

A little more info about striping;
When you stripe disks together, depending on the vendor, it will also affect your REAL TIME stream counts and their performance per stream.

Info about RAID;
When you RAID a drive, usually recommended at RAID5 or RAID6 you will also loose additional disk performance that will affect both the bandwidth of the solution and the REAL TIME performance of the solution.

Do you have plans to run anything faster then HDCAM (DVCPRO HD)? If you do, you’ll want to get a solution designed for your worse case scenario. For example; a solution that runs 5 streams of HDCAM, may or may not run 5 streams of PRO RES or anything beyond HDCAM. — It’s true — because not all RAID solutions are designed equally ….

3K — I’m sure someone here can find you a good set of drives for 3K, the question will be how much more will you need to spend in the long term of the solution, and/or who can you call when something goes wrong if it’s failing…..

Another point is that if you want SHARED STORAGE — that shared load will also affect how it behave in an overall way…..

If I were you, I would put your drives behind a central server (like a Mac Pro 8 Core) and I would install a Small Tree multi Port Gigabit NIC. This allows you to connect each Mac or PC directly to the server. The server will do all the work of reading and writing to the storage. This is often called NAS (Network Attached Storage), and can often be the easiest on the pocket book…..but even 3K is a little low.

A good solution (one that will be able to do PRO RES 4444 or anything less) in terms of high stream counts will last you a lot longer then having to buy new RAIDS all the time when they get 80% full, or you ad more clients to your network as you grow.

The bottom line is that you have to know 100% that whatever you buy (or build) can support you now, and six months from now when you change things in your workflow. I would also plan on spending (on the low side 8K-9K for something that will last a while in capacity and in a NETWORK SHARED REAL TIME configuration, and 10K-15K + on the higher side of things. Don’t forget to find a Mac Pro (8 Core) server to do the work as well on top of that. (I know that seems high, but comparatively, this kind of Ethernet configuration is roughly about 40% less then Fiber Channel would be for 4 to 5 client systems in a SAN network)

I’ll be curious to see what others will come back with…. and even more curious to find out how long that will last you or if we’ll see you again in six months when you move up the ranks in editing formats…..

If you’d like to speak with me more, I’ve left my contact number at the bottom for you (or anyone) that would like to speak with me;

Regards,

Matt Geier (Small Tree)
952-641-7433

[Jack Johnson]

Thanks Matt, I’m not opposed to spending more. I just want to make sure I’m getting the most cost efficient set up and not blowing thousands on gear that is way above and beyond my needs. Only one system will be accessing the RAID. At the moment I only need about 4TB but I’d love the option to add more drives as needed.

I need something clarified, will using a MacPro as the server basically do the same thing an external raid enclosure does?

[Matt Geier]

Jack,

In a single system environment, just replace the word “server” with the word “client” and connect your storage.

In an environment where you have 2 editors connected to a Mac Server (3rd system) that’s a Shared Storage network that needs to be balanced in a different way.

Make sure whatever hardware RAID you choose, will support your stream counts the way you need it to; Both in terms of bandwidth, and in per stream count (bandwidth, and response times of disk)…….each video format will work a little differently then another.

Hope that helps.

Matt G

[Jack Johnson]

It seems like you have an understanding of my needs. What kind of card do you think I need and what kind of drive enclosure?

As much as I’d like to add another MacPro, they just don’t have the drive capacity I might need in a few months from now. Which could be as much as 16TB or so.

[Jack Johnson]

I think I’m beginning to understand my RAID options. It looks like I can go with an ATTO SAS/SATA card and a compatible enclosure. The popular options on this site seem to be the Maxx Evo and AIC. How does one pick an enclosure to work an ATTO card?

Would fibre be for a large chain of computers that all need access to uncompressed HD.

Also, I know what SATA is. What’s SAS?

[Matt Geier]

Hi Jack,

Without creating a conflict with people, I won’t recommend any hardware, I am only technically knowledgable about the true performance of Small Tree’s technologies….if I were an independent (like some here) I would provide you with a referent to Small Tree as your answer because I know what the engineering team is capable of and knows this Shared Storage Real Time extremely well. (Others here can back that up….) (Small Tree is composed mostly of Ex SGI and Ex Cray engineers, sales, and technical support people.)

Speaking in a different context, in the interest of folks on the board, I’ll be as knowledgable as I can with you without giving away any Small Tree trade secrets. That’s why I won’t recommend a particular host adapter. (They all perform differently….) I will say that Small Tree is an OEM of ATTO, and work very closely with Intel and Apple at various levels with regard to networking, Mac OSX, and real time shared storage performance with regard to their GraniteSTOR family of products (ST-RAID, and ST-RAIDII, among others)

I’ll recommend giving me a call and I can speak with you. (Friday) if you like. My number is in the first post.

Excersizing good business ethics, I will offer you to speak with other vendors on the phone and have the same conversation that you have with me. Then you can make a desicion based on how your “feelings” go and who you are most comfortable with at the time…….time is money in this business, and your business is editing…..you have to be 100% confident that whatever and whoever you choose, works, and who can you rely on to fix it if it breaks….etc….

Definition of SAS = Serial Attached SCSI (Scu-zz-ee)

—- Small Tree is a solution provider of Real Time Shared Storage solutions that fit your need based on my previous posts, the solutions offered would be a great fit for you at every level —- you can also check Small Tree out at NAB 2011 and speak with Steve Modica (SAN Forum Leader here) or others at Small Tree… Unfortunately I will not be attending this year….. (Small Tree will include everything you’ll need from the Storage, Network Adapters, Storage Controller perspective and 100% Mac OS X friendly options) — Small Tree is not an Apple Reseller, so you’ll need to get the Mac from Apple, or from your authorized Apple dealer….

I hope this intrigues you and is helpful to all that come across this post.

I still encourage others to participate in this talk.

Regards,

Matt Geier (Small Tree)
952-641-7433

[Kyle Lodge]

Hey Jack,

Hope you’re search is going well for the RAID system that you want to implement.

I saw that the reputable sources that you mentioned for purchasing a RAID was Maxx Digital, which I happen to work for. It sounds like you don’t want to do shared storage and just want direct attached storage for speed and reliability. Although I will agree on one thing that Matt mentioned, and that’s support. I’m head of tech support here at Maxx and am available 24/7 for any assistance you might need. I can also get you setup with Bob Zelin who’s a leader on this forum and do a presales call to make sure that what you think you need is actually what you’ll need. Contact me privately here @ kyle@maxxdigital.com and would definitely be interested in showing you our products and getting you set up with one of our Evo series RAIDs.

Good luck with your project(s).

Cheers,

Kyle Lodge
Maxx Digital
(714)600-3050

[Bob Zelin]

Here is the answer that you want, since I can see that you don’t want to spend any money. By the way, you did not even say what you are using – FCP, Adobe Premier, AVID Media Composer, Edius ? What are you using ?

Until you are ready to spend money (thousands of dollars), but some cheap internal SATA drives. Two 2 TB drives will cost you about 400 bucks, and you will have your 4TB of storage that can handle ProREs422HQ or AVID DNxHD220. Is that cheap enough for you ?

Then when you grow up, and save your pennies (and have regular work to justify a real RAID array), you can contact any of the companies that are posting here – they all make great products. If you think you are going to get a high performance RAID for 600 bucks, you are on drugs, so just buy your two internal drives (or 3 internal drives) and go to work, and make money. Save your money, and when you are ready, come back, and buy a Professional RAID 5 array. You see the ads for these products right here on Creative Cow – you can’t miss them. They will all be dramatically more reliable than
the 2 or 3 internal drives, but it will cost you a LOT more money.

Bob Zelin

[Jack Johnson]

That’s getting RAID to the point Bob! I like that about you. Well I now know that $3k won’t go far in purchasing a tested and reliable solution that includes tech support, a decent warranty, an enclosure that won’t whistle as it works, and can handle the speeds of HD. I can respect that.

I might just have to upgrade the internal RAID for the moment and keep my fingers crossed until I get more work and get my pennies in a bunch…or is it, ah never mind.

Now I know there are some Small Tree fans here. They clearly know what they’re doing and sell reliable solutions. Maxx Digital also falls in line with a tested reliable solution, as do some of the other names often mentioned on these boards.

But I’m wondering if anyone here has purchased or has some information on Promax. How are they able to price their products so aggressively compared to Small Tree & CalDigit & the rest?

Oh, and I’m using FCP 7 with a Kona LH on a 4 core MacPro.

[Bob Zelin]

One of the big things you find in cheaper brands is NON enterprise drives, or crappy host controller cards. Bottom line is that ATTO and Areca cards (the two best host controller companies) actually work. And they cost more than double of the cheaper host adaptor companies. So when your RAID 5 array has a drive fail, and your rebuild doesn’t rebuild, and you lose all your media (which you could have done with 2 internal SATA drives, and only spend 400 bucks) – HOW MUCH IS THAT WORTH TO YOU.

To some people, losing all their media will cause them to jump off a building, get ulcers, and ponder suicide. But to others, it’s “not that big of a deal”. If it’s not that big of a deal, and you can save $3000 in your purchase, then buy the crappy G-Speed eS with the horrible Highpoint host adaptor card. That works, and remember, when it fails, hey – “it’s no big deal”. If it is a big deal, buy the right stuff, and you will never have to worry.

Bob Zelin