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Forums Creative Community Conversations Is Pro-res keeping us Mac Based?

  • Is Pro-res keeping us Mac Based?

  • Brooks Tomlinson

    April 13, 2014 at 5:03 am

    First, I prefer OSX. I edited on DS for 8 years, and now I’m all mac, I’m happier. But lets take personal preferences out of the equation.

    Where is the Pro-res codec introduced? where is it needed for the final step? If Pro-res came to windows, would we look at widows differently?

    Quantel Pablo and Scratch just announced Pro-Res encoding. A need that there customers cried for. I free lance around, and a lot of the shops I work at, have to stay mac because their clients (i.e agencies) handle everything pro res, and sometimes require pro res.

    to my knowledge AJA were the people that launched in the field pro res. This video at the 11:00 mark is what convinced me that pro res is a good codec at that time,

    https://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/features/?articleId=3264896

    (in the video he shows what compression brings to the picture) I would love to see this done with new codec of today.

    So if you are PC land, you have to jump thru hoops to get good prores. Hoops means time, time means money. But, you can get more power and more flexibility with PC builds.

    My point is wondering how much of workflow is really tied to Pro-Res, vs OSX.

    Brooks Tomlinson
    “I dream in 32bit float”

  • Darren Roark

    April 13, 2014 at 6:05 am

    I have heard and read good things about Miraizon, but it doesn’t change my mind about Windows.

    Although Windows has gotten better, the times I do have to boot into it I’m amazed how much stuff has to happen, and install, and update, and (random activity here) just to shut down or restart. It’s a tradeoff of time I’m not willing to make.

  • Tim Wilson

    April 13, 2014 at 6:06 am

    [Brooks Tomlinson] “So if you are PC land, you have to jump thru hoops to get good prores. “

    Please please please look through the COW archives. This is simply not true, as has been reported every time it comes up. There have been multiple ways to handle this for years, including solutions that are free. If all you need is a ProRes deliverable, render final output and be done — no different or more difficult a process than has been undertaken from the first days of this industry, or every day in this era.

    If you need something more, there are server-based applications that blast through whatever quantity you need.

    The bottom line is that it can be done affordably, at whatever degree of complexity you need. This has been true for years.

    [Brooks Tomlinson] “First, I prefer OSX. I edited on DS for 8 years, and now I’m all mac, I’m happier. But lets take personal preferences out of the equation. “

    I don’t think it’s possible to take personal feelings out of it. I also don’t think it’s prudent.

    Using yourself as an example, why SHOULD you consider going back to something less pleasant? There’s certainly no technological or business reason. Do what makes you happy.

    That’s my bottom line for an awful lot of life. I don’t think it’s easy to figure out what makes ourselves happy, but I think a lot of misery comes after you DO know what makes you happy, and you don’t actually do it. Be happy!

    So yeah, you absolutely can get a PC that’s faster than a Mac, more powerful, more extensible. But how much faster, etc. would it have to be to make you HAPPY? How much time would you have to save on a faster PC in order to make up the time you’d lose by setting up a new workflow?

    (My own experience is that learning curve is a non-issue. You’re smart people. You can figure it out.)

    But I also think, far more than ProRes, maybe even moreso than preferring Macs, the preference for FCP/FCPX is titanium-laced cement. ProRes on a PC is a piece of cake. FCP/X on a PC is impossible. There’s really not anything I can think of that would budge somebody off that position….

    ….but it’s easy to observe that all over the COW, once people untether themselves from their commitment to FCP/X, their commitment to Mac is up for grabs too, as they sometimes find themselves happier than they could have imagined using another NLE on a PC.

    Or, depending on personal preference, not. 🙂

    I dunno, I could be wrong about any of this, but it’s past my bedtime on a Saturday night, and this is fun to think about. 🙂

  • Chris Kenny

    April 13, 2014 at 2:01 pm

    [Tim Wilson] “Please please please look through the COW archives. This is simply not true, as has been reported every time it comes up. There have been multiple ways to handle this for years, including solutions that are free.”

    With a Windows app that can’t output ProRes directly (i.e. still most of them, including, critically for us, Resolve), if you want ProRes with no loss of quality vs. what you’d get via direct output, you first need to render to an uncompressed format and then feed that into external ProRes encoding software. For feature-length 1080p/2K content that means you’ll need around a terabyte of storage to hold that temporary render, and if you want to output at full speed it needs to be fast. For instance, the Mac Pro in our main suite can render a 1080p/2K sequence out of Resolve at ~70-90 fps. Doing that to, say, 10-bit DPX requires storage that pushes over 700 MB/s. Then you need to take that output and separately encode it to ProRes, which can easily increase the total time required to get your ProRes output by 100% vs. rendering directly to that format.

    For short-form content or occasional use this might be fine. For a busy facility with deadlines, it’s a deal breaker.

    That said, there are lots of other factors that cause us to continue to prefer OS X — and I say this in the aftermath of an ~18 month attempt to shift some of our core operations (color grading, transcoding) to Windows during the period where Apple wasn’t updating the Mac Pro.

    As far as creative editing goes… that’s generally not something that requires some dual socket 24-core monster with a couple of Titans, or some other thing you can’t get in the Mac world. Most of the projects we do post on (indie features) seem to be cut on someone’s MacBook Pro these days. That means going to Windows for this task is mostly just about saving a little money, but for a pro using a tool 40+ hours a week, this seems like a poor place to try to economize — unless you actively prefer Windows, you’d be crazy to switch just to save a few hundred bucks, i.e. less than a dollar a day over the expected lifespan of the machine.

    We will probably go to Windows in-house for disc authoring though. There’s no actively maintained non-consumer disc authoring software for OS X anymore since Adobe EOL’d Encore. And of course we have to keep Linux around for DCP replication (although running it in a VM under OS X saves some hassle).


    Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

    You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

  • Ricardo Marty

    April 13, 2014 at 5:01 pm

    but can i ingest and work with prores on a win/pc or is it just output?

    Ricardo Marty

  • Joseph Owens

    April 13, 2014 at 6:00 pm

    [Ricardo Marty] “but can i ingest and work with prores on a win/pc or is it just output?”

    Haven’t really tried it, but I got 1.87 million hits on Google with “ingest edit ProRes on Windows” as a search term.

    I am really thinking about a Windows-based fourth suite to load up R11 when it arrives and then make that my first-in last-out workflow room. Pre-digest new incoming timelines in whatever format they arrive in, trouble shoot, reconform if necessary, pass along to the hero grade suite, and then when that is done, pass it back for mastering, versioning, and DCP/deliverables.

    jPo

    “I always pass on free advice — its never of any use to me” Oscar Wilde.

  • Frank Gothmann

    April 13, 2014 at 6:37 pm

    [Chris Kenny] “With a Windows app that can’t output ProRes directly (i.e. still most of them, including, critically for us, Resolve),”

    As Tim said before, all this is a non-issue. There are several solutions available on Windows to output directly from within the app to Prores. From within Avid, Premiere, Edius, Vegas, you name it.
    It IS strange that a majority of people still seem to not know about all these options.

    ——
    “You also agree that you will not use these products for… the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons.”
    iTunes End User Licence Agreement

  • Gustavo Bermudas

    April 13, 2014 at 6:58 pm

    The issue with ProRes on Windows is a bit more complicated than it seems from the previous posts.
    There are solutions, like Miraizon, to output ProRes files, but it’s very slow, and it’s their OWN version of ProRes, not Apple’s ProRes, and while this may be argued as a not big of a deal, for some is. If you try to import those in FCP7 you may get the message that this file is not optimized for playback and need to be rendered, also, some broadcast deliverables when they ask for ProRes files, they’re really asking for Apple ProRes files, not a third party version of ProRes, and this can be cause for further rejections, not to mention a bit of embarrasment when explaining to your client why you failed to deliver.

    I read in one of these forums that to get your movie on iTunes, it needs to be AppleProRes, not only that, it seems they have a way to check if it was created on anothe non-propriatory ProRes before it was converted to their own version, but I never saw anything like this in the real world, so it may be just rumors.

    The announcement of Scratch offering “Native Apple ProRes” it’s a big dal, because it offers “true” Apple ProRes encoding on Windows, and unless I’m wrong, it’s the first one.

  • Chris Kenny

    April 13, 2014 at 7:09 pm

    [Frank Gothmann] “As Tim said before, all this is a non-issue. There are several solutions available on Windows to output directly from within the app to Prores. From within Avid, Premiere, Edius, Vegas, you name it.
    It IS strange that a majority of people still seem to not know about all these options.”

    As far as I’ve been able to tell there’s one option that exports ProRes directly from video apps on Windows, it hasn’t been around for very long, it’s pretty slow, it doesn’t work in Resolve, and gamma might be wrong out of RCX.


    Digital Workflow/Colorist, Nice Dissolve.

    You should follow me on Twitter here. Or read our blog.

  • Frank Gothmann

    April 13, 2014 at 7:38 pm

    [Chris Kenny] “As far as I’ve been able to tell there’s one option that exports ProRes directly from video apps on Windows, it hasn’t been around for very long, it’s pretty slow, it doesn’t work in Resolve, and gamma might be wrong out of RCX.

    There’s the solution from Miraizon an there’s Mediareactor from Drastic. Both export directly out of Windows apps. Gamma’s ok on both as long as the source app handles Quicktime gamma ok. Gamma is a QT issue, not a problem of those export plug-ins.

    ——
    “You also agree that you will not use these products for… the development, design, manufacture or production of nuclear, missiles, or chemical or biological weapons.”
    iTunes End User Licence Agreement

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