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Is P2 really going to make it?
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[hallwaypd] “That’s why it even harder for me to accept the fact that there is little interest for these cameras on the rental market.”
Well my opinion on this formats aside, it’s all about the workflow. People (DPs, producers, people involved at the acquisition) either can’t or won’t accept the fact that it is possible, and they are afraid of what they don’t know. It is up to you to convince clients that this method is actually better/faster/cheaper not only from the acquisition stage, but it will save them money in post as well. Now, your clients are shooters and some of them, I’m sure, have been working on their workflows for over 20 years. They don’t want to change, they are used to working with tape and all the stuff that goes with that and can you blame them? It’s tried, it’s true and basically happens without failure.
P2/tapeless brings a new level of responsibility to the table, and along with that new stress which we all know in a fast paced environment, more stress sucks. This responsibility is not only on the end user, but it should be felt by manufacturers as well. This is why I am saying having an all around system designed from pre to post production will be the key and tip in to P2/tapeless as a whole. It will require better software and hardware integration from Panasonic. I know there’s some stuff out there, but P2CMS is kind of confusing and it needs to be really developed for a Mac with a manual that makes a bit more sense. All of the pieces of the whole entire P2 system, to me, aren’t really in all the right places quite yet. It’s getting closer, with every new camera and every new piece of hardware, the more development we see. It sounds like having the camera control the hard drive dump off process is a great start. That means the DP can do that him or herself and not have to hire a person just to manage the media, and it can be done right from the camera. Pretty cool. Of course, the seasoned DP has to be trained on how and when to do this. Also, having an easy way to manage the metadata on the fly (preferably right in camera and not having to swap SD cards) will be the holy grail of speed, functionality and overall usefulness. It’ll get there I am sure. In the meantime, we all learn.
Jeremy
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[hallwaypd] “I think P2 has and will continue to dominate the small camera market for now because for that it makes sense. I continue to be very unsure about its future in the high end market”
But — what market? It’s doing fantastic in broadcast. Your market is rentals; that’s not “the” market, it’s “a” market. Of course it’s the one you’re most concerned with, obviously, but it doesn’t define the overall market.
P2 is not the most freelancer-friendly system. But then again, neither’s XDCAM. Everyone wishes we could go back to the days of format agnosticity where there was one format (BetaSP) and every camera, every deck, every rental house, every tape was all interchangeable. That made it easy on everyone. But those days are gone. Look at HD by itself, by my count Sony offers at least six different HD recording formats! There is no universal format. Even with XDCAM media, they’re using the same disc media but the standard-def deck can’t read the high-def discs and the high-def deck can’t read the standard-def discs, and neither deck can read the new 50mbps discs!
And the tape situation isn’t any better. If you look at HDV, you’ve got one “format” which is really made of three largely completely incompatible formats. Can’t put a Sony or Canon tape in a JVC deck, can’t use a Canon 24F/30F tape on a Sony deck, can’t play a JVC 24p tape in a Sony deck, can’t put a JVC tape in a Canon, etc.
The world that we had (where an Ampex deck could play a Fuji or Maxell or Sony BetaSP tape from an Ikegami camera, or any other combination) is gone.
Freelancers and stringers are going to have to get used to that idea. That old world doesn’t exist anymore, and it’s drifting further and further behind. Yes tape is still relevant for some purposes (your purpose is an ideal one, for example) and that’s why the F900 continues to rent and why the VariCam is still a current model and why they introduced the HDX900. But the overall production world is transitioning away.
The good thing about memory recording is that it’s computer-readable media, as opposed to the disc recording system that requires a dedicated deck. Computer-readable gives you immediate operability and interchangeability with any post house, etc. As cards get bigger and cheaper, you’ll see less and less resistance.
The gaping hole in the market right now for freelancers is the idea of a distributable media. Sony tries to fill that gap with their XDCAM disc system (which is, let’s face it, basically a tape workflow — a flat shiny tape instead of a long brown tape but the same basic workflow) but even then that’s screwed up because it requires dedicated decks that few people have, and they keep obsoleting equipment by releasing newer/incompatible decks. So the missing link is to get memory recordings onto some manner of cheap distributable media.
And that’s where the hard drive comes in, that’s what we’ve been using. It just should be more convenient to make such drive copies.
Memory recording is great for many purposes, but I break the tapeless acquisition system into two distinct groups: there are those who are shooting who want to work on their footage (and P2 flat-out rules for that market, such as news shooters or local commercials or any broadcast purpose) and then there’s people who want to shoot footage who want to file it away. A freelancer hired to turn over the footage to someone else would be a perfect example (and is probably largely your customer).
P2 adds an extra step for those people. There’s more work involved. But there are ways around it; if P2 becomes more widely adopted at NFL Films or such, is it unreasonable to expect that there may come a day when the hiring company supplies the cards? As in, “here, here’s a 128GB card, go shoot me five hours of footage and bring back my card”. Might happen.
Until then, many of us just make copies of the footage and hand it over on a hard disk. That’s the option that’s available to us.
It’d be great if Panasonic would come up with a P2 Store II, something that is a simple device that has a P2 slot on one end and a connected external USB drive on the other, some little $300 box that you press a button and it automatically offloads. Then the hard disk becomes your media that you hand over, and it’s *much less expensive* than high-def tape. Consider the cost of a DVCPRO-HD tape (about $1 per gigabyte) vs. a hard disk and you’ll see hard disks are already a lot cheaper today, and they’ll be even cheaper next month, etc. And as the idea becomes more entrenched I can’t imagine a producer who’d rather rent deck time to log and digitize hours of tapes, vs. getting a predigitized edit-ready hard disk.
Your points are noted. For your particular client it’s probably facing more resistance. But your particular segment of the market doesn’t necessarily reflect the overall market. I guess your question could be rephrased “Is P2 really going to make it IN THE CAMCORDER RENTAL MARKET?” In that market the future may be more unpredictable. But your original question was “is it really going to make it?” and I think the answer overall is a resounding “hell yes.”
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Barry,
I agree with most of what you’re saying here. One thing though, I have never suggested that my market is “the” market. There are many factions of this business and many of them have indeed found a place for P2 and I have acknoledged that and applaud it. But the “camcorder rental market” is not the only area where P2 is stuggling.
I have only used my rental house as an example for the sake of this forum. I also work part time as an EIC and have been a freelance video shader for years. I have been on HD and digital expando’s from all over the country and I can tell you that it represents a very significant portion of this market. It also happens to be one where P2 does not exist. I don’t even see flash formats moving into that market anytime in the near future. Now EVS hard drive machines are standard on every truck, but even the brand new HD units still are installed with tape machines.
This brings up another point. Any serious mobile truck will have one of only three manufacturer of cameras; Sony, Ikegami and Thompson / Grass Valley. There are no other players. Now, as an engineer, I can tell you I would love to see a truck fitted with Panasonic HD cameras in a multi-cam setup. Nevertheless, no amount of “education” will change this because remote trucks are a very stuborn industry. Now Panasonic knows this and they have capitalized well on much of the other areas of production and some broadcast facilites as well. But it is far from taking over as any “standard” in my opinion.
To address P2’s competitors like the XDCAM, I agree with you. Let me be clear, I personally believe that P2, for what it is designed for, is the best option available today. But it does not meet every need and I believe that it is potentially vunerable for new technologies to be introduced that can do better.
I have always thought XDCAM was definately a move in the wrong direction. I don’t have a problem with what it does, but it is still composed of moving parts like a tape machine. I also don’t think HDV will ever see light outside of the prosumer market. It would be great to see P2 refined to the point where other companies would license it for their products because it will be to the point that BetaSP was in the early 90’s… it will meet almost all needs. However, I still see a lot of room to grow and the best does not always win. Remember Betamax vs. VHS?
Chad Hall
Nashville, TN -
Small production company here… we were shooting BetaSP & DV. We became interested in “offering more” to our clients, as well as get moving in HD, but in a somewhat affordable, professionally-oriented camera format (shoulder-mount, 2/3″ chipped, etc). Did NOT want to get involved in any tape or expensive media readers. The HPX500 was the only camera to offer this combination. Period. End of story. 5 year warranty. No moving parts. I’ll probably be senile before the P2 card insert cycle is reached. Loving the workflow (most of the time).
Will something better come along? You know what….
I DON’T CARE!
I’ve got the perfect tool for my budget, and (fingers crossed) there’s no need for a maintenance budget. So all I have to do is go shoot and make $$$.
Thank you Panasonic.
PS – ask me in 5 years what camera I want.
“Constituo, ergo sum”
Bob Woodhead / Atlanta
http://www.CoolNewMedia.net
Quantel-Avid-FCP-3D-Crayola
Panasonic HPX500 -
Hi from up here in Toronto Jan;
I run a small post operation and have just started being approached to work with P2. Do you know of any resources (courses or documents) that could help get me up to speed?
Thanks;
Dan
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Again a independent production company here. We have an HVX200 and HPX500, we also shoot with the Varicam some. I hand drives to clients as part of our workflow all the time now, after they get into the flow they are very happy with this. The thing that works out great is that we have a copy from the camera of everything we shoot, so we update our samples right away, some times the next day. No more hand a tape to someone and never see the footage again.
The work flow on a shoot takes focus, you must set time aside to download cards or have someone set up with a copy station that you trust to copy the cards to one or two drives. If we are not editing the job we will use two (most of the time we use two anyway) and at the end of the day hand one of the drives to the client. We use a small 80 or 160 gig drive and bill it as part of the job.
I am also a still photographer and our studio was already use to handling digital files and had a strong workflow in place. You must have a method and follow it , you will lose something if you don’t.
I think what drives us to shoot different cameras has more to do with the look of the image. Just as the HVX200 image looks different from the HPX500, the Varicam has a different look. That is how we decide about if we need to rent something.
That being said I do not want to go back to tape as our main capture method, the P2 workflow is great for our company and most of our clients.
Mark
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[dgadirector] “I also keep a copy for myself. Works great. “
And that’s exactly what one of the problems is with P2. What client wants to leave a shoot with his footage with the possibility that the shooter has a copy of their footage? I have had clients bring their own drives for editing and when we were one, they required that we do a “spotlight” check to make sure that none of their intellectual property was sitting on our machines.
That has always been the “safe” thing about tape. Shoot, remove cassette, board plane.
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way. -
Chad – I think you’ve walked into a Corvette Club meeting and asked if Corvettes were going to be around for a while. I think you need to take your question to those who are buying the footage, not selling the footage. I’ve been in business for 25 years and have never had a client ask for P-2. Several have had us shoot and transfer their stuff to an external, portable drive, though.
When P-2 first showed up at NAB, I told my long time (20 years) Panasonic rep that I thought that the P-2 format was the best thing ever for news and I still feel that way. I also said that if they make the cards cheap enough, they will never be able to make cameras fast enough. However, there is no justification for the price of the cards. The SD cards cost what they cost and the housing they sit in should cost a hundred bucks or so and the users should be able to swap out the SD cards as they grow in size. The rip off price of the cards is chillingly similar to the $1 a minute that we paid for BetaSP years ago. Funny how Beta fell from grace and the tape went down 65% in cost. When the VX-1000 came out, 60 minute tapes were $28 each. Who would pay that today? Not the people who cry about having to pay $7 for a Panny MQ tape.
A lot of recording media has been named as the end all – MII, BetaSP, D-9, Hi-8, DV, BetaSX and many more. The speed of technology being what it is today tells us that a format is good for about 3-4 years before it gets bested by something new.
If P-2 cards were a couple hundred bucks, producers would carry their own cards to shoots. Most of the time, when we shoot HDCAM, the producers bring their own tapes and leave with their own tapes. Some ask us to provide tape stock but less than half do so.
This all being said, we have a couple Sony EX-1s coming and they shoot to S+S cards. The Sony camera with the snap on card recorder might just be the answer. A camera body with a tape drive and a snap on card recorder.
So, I guess that my overall answer is to buy what will make tons of money for 4-5 years and then sell it off because it will be old technology. The HVX200 has been out for how long? It has a tremendous following but as soon as something better comes along, it will go away fast. The DVX100 cameras were the best thing in town and we still recommend them to new shooters who do not want to deal with technology that requires technological knowledge. The P-2 workflow is over their head and tape is easy to deal with. If Panasonic does away with tape, I think that they are overestimating the brain power of a lot of people. Some people can’t get past the dial on the back of the DVX and will never know what 29.97 means. They want to push a button and record and then plug the camera into the computer and download footage. When they shoot their project, they want to have a box of tapes to put on the shelf. We shot a feature on the DVX in 2002 and there is a box of 34 tapes in the storeroom that might never be opened again but it’s there for whatever reason.
So, as for your question about P-2 being the future, I wouldn’t bet too much money on it and neither will the veterans in the industry. It’s great for today but today ends at midnight.
And, to the people who are going to rip into me over this, let’s see what you’re shooting on in 5 years. When we bought our HDCAM camera in 2002, (5 years ago) HDCAM was the format of the future. And where is it now?
The Super Bowl is coming here in two months and HDCAM is the required format, for this year. Who knows what next year will bring?
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way. -
Chad – I think you’ve walked into a Corvette Club meeting and asked if Corvettes were going to be around for a while. I think you need to take your question to those who are buying the footage, not selling the footage. I’ve been in business for 25 years and have never had a client ask for P-2. Several have had us shoot and transfer their stuff to an external, portable drive, though.
When P-2 first showed up at NAB, I told my long time (20 years) Panasonic rep that I thought that the P-2 format was the best thing ever for news and I still feel that way. I also said that if they make the cards cheap enough, they will never be able to make cameras fast enough. However, there is no justification for the price of the cards. The SD cards cost what they cost and the housing they sit in should cost a hundred bucks or so and the users should be able to swap out the SD cards as they grow in size. The rip off price of the cards is chillingly similar to the $1 a minute that we paid for BetaSP years ago. Funny how Beta fell from grace and the tape went down 65% in cost. When the VX-1000 came out, 60 minute tapes were $28 each. Who would pay that today? Not the people who cry about having to pay $7 for a Panny MQ tape.
A lot of recording media has been named as the end all – MII, BetaSP, D-9, Hi-8, DV, BetaSX and many more. The speed of technology being what it is today tells us that a format is good for about 3-4 years before it gets bested by something new.
If P-2 cards were a couple hundred bucks, producers would carry their own cards to shoots. Most of the time, when we shoot HDCAM, the producers bring their own tapes and leave with their own tapes. Some ask us to provide tape stock but less than half do so.
This all being said, we have a couple Sony EX-1s coming and they shoot to S+S cards. The Sony camera with the snap on card recorder might just be the answer. A camera body with a tape drive and a snap on card recorder.
So, I guess that my overall answer is to buy what will make tons of money for 4-5 years and then sell it off because it will be old technology. The HVX200 has been out for how long? It has a tremendous following but as soon as something better comes along, it will go away fast. The DVX100 cameras were the best thing in town and we still recommend them to new shooters who do not want to deal with technology that requires technological knowledge. The P-2 workflow is over their head and tape is easy to deal with. If Panasonic does away with tape, I think that they are overestimating the brain power of a lot of people. Some people can’t get past the dial on the back of the DVX and will never know what 29.97 means. They want to push a button and record and then plug the camera into the computer and download footage. When they shoot their project, they want to have a box of tapes to put on the shelf. We shot a feature on the DVX in 2002 and there is a box of 34 tapes in the storeroom that might never be opened again but it’s there for whatever reason.
So, as for your question about P-2 being the future, I wouldn’t bet too much money on it and neither will the veterans in the industry. It’s great for today but today ends at midnight.
And, to the people who are going to rip into me over this, let’s see what you’re shooting on in 5 years. When we bought our HDCAM camera in 2002, (5 years ago) HDCAM was the format of the future. And where is it now?
The Super Bowl is coming here in two months and HDCAM is the required format, for this year. Who knows what next year will bring?
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way. -
Chad – I think you’ve walked into a Corvette Club meeting and asked if Corvettes were going to be around for a while. I think you need to take your question to those who are buying the footage, not selling the footage. I’ve been in business for 25 years and have never had a client ask for P-2. Several have had us shoot and transfer their stuff to an external, portable drive, though.
When P-2 first showed up at NAB, I told my long time (20 years) Panasonic rep that I thought that the P-2 format was the best thing ever for news and I still feel that way. I also said that if they make the cards cheap enough, they will never be able to make cameras fast enough. However, there is no justification for the price of the cards. The SD cards cost what they cost and the housing they sit in should cost a hundred bucks or so and the users should be able to swap out the SD cards as they grow in size. The rip off price of the cards is chillingly similar to the $1 a minute that we paid for BetaSP years ago. Funny how Beta fell from grace and the tape went down 65% in cost. When the VX-1000 came out, 60 minute tapes were $28 each. Who would pay that today? Not the people who cry about having to pay $7 for a Panny MQ tape.
A lot of recording media has been named as the end all – MII, BetaSP, D-9, Hi-8, DV, BetaSX and many more. The speed of technology being what it is today tells us that a format is good for about 3-4 years before it gets bested by something new.
If P-2 cards were a couple hundred bucks, producers would carry their own cards to shoots. Most of the time, when we shoot HDCAM, the producers bring their own tapes and leave with their own tapes. Some ask us to provide tape stock but less than half do so.
This all being said, we have a couple Sony EX-1s coming and they shoot to S+S cards. The Sony camera with the snap on card recorder might just be the answer. A camera body with a tape drive and a snap on card recorder.
So, I guess that my overall answer is to buy what will make tons of money for 4-5 years and then sell it off because it will be old technology. The HVX200 has been out for how long? It has a tremendous following but as soon as something better comes along, it will go away fast. The DVX100 cameras were the best thing in town and we still recommend them to new shooters who do not want to deal with technology that requires technological knowledge. The P-2 workflow is over their head and tape is easy to deal with. If Panasonic does away with tape, I think that they are overestimating the brain power of a lot of people. Some people can’t get past the dial on the back of the DVX and will never know what 29.97 means. They want to push a button and record and then plug the camera into the computer and download footage. When they shoot their project, they want to have a box of tapes to put on the shelf. We shot a feature on the DVX in 2002 and there is a box of 34 tapes in the storeroom that might never be opened again but it’s there for whatever reason.
So, as for your question about P-2 being the future, I wouldn’t bet too much money on it and neither will the veterans in the industry. It’s great for today but today ends at midnight.
And, to the people who are going to rip into me over this, let’s see what you’re shooting on in 5 years. When we bought our HDCAM camera in 2002, (5 years ago) HDCAM was the format of the future. And where is it now?
The Super Bowl is coming here in two months and HDCAM is the required format, for this year. Who knows what next year will bring?
Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It’s a dry heat!Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
Sony EX-1 on the way.
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