Is P2 really going to make it?

[Chad Hall]

[Rennie] “BetaSP was a format, cameras ingested it and decks spit it out. P2 is not a format it is only media that stores many types of formats. A Panasonic HVX200 can record 81 different formats of video onto a P2 card. At this point AVC-I appears to be the BetaSP killer.”

Rennie,

Thank you for pointing this out, although I do understand the difference, I use the term format probably a little looser than I should.

[Rennie] “This whole thread is reminiscent of posts from 2 years ago prior to the release of the HVX200. (P2 had already been in use in SD ENG cameras for a year by then)”

Well, you are talking about the HVX200 and for all practical purposes, that is sort of in a league of it’s own. What I am referring to are the larger high end cameras such as F900, Varicam and HPX3000. Smaller cameras will probably continue to be very innovative and that is a big reason of my concern. P2 was initially introduced with the HVX200 and nothing else. It has obviously come a long way since then and according to Barry Greens statistics is the hottest selling media today. I think that is all great. But what about tomorrow?

I am asking this question with the perspective that 12 years ago, no one could shoot professional video without serious capitol. Now, Joe Video can start his own production company for under $10k. To answer my own question from a previous post, I don’t think there will ever be another true “stadard” like BetaSP was. There will continue to be new technologies and new innovations. Even if P2 becomes universally accepted, how long could that possibly last? I guarantee that the other big companies are not going to roll over and wallow in defeat. No, they will come up with something better.

Let me be clear, I am not “anti” P2. Just the opposite, I have been a huge advocate for it as far as moving in the right direction. I just don’t feel that it is going to be “the” solution for HD. I seem to be pretty much alone in that opinion here on this forum, but that’s ok. You all obviously have very strong feelings about this media and I believe that will attribute to its ongoing success. Hopefully you can all prove me wrong. I have had many of the same feelings about the Red One camera, but that is for another day and another forum. Either way, P2… moving into high end cameras.. still not convinced that it’s not too high of a risk for serious investment yet.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Jeremy Garchow]

Wow, I had no idea the 2000 and 3000 had this kind of functionality:

https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/193/868261

It makes life even easier.

FWIW, A DP buddy of mine constantly hands a hard drive over to clients instead of tape.

Jeremy

[D. scott Dobbie]

You mention, “For most freelancers, they need something to hand off to their client, which was one of my points in the first post.”

I DO hand off something to the clients: a $200, 500GB LaCie Quad Interface Drive that has their footage files DL’d onto it. I also keep a copy for myself. Works great.

-Scott

[D. scott Dobbie]

The reason handing a hard drive over to the client works, is because you’ve just saved them money. They get to skip the step where their editor has to “Log & Capture” a tape.

Once you educate the client, the love you!

-Scott

[Rennie Klymyk]

[hallwaypd] “P2 was initially introduced with the HVX200 and nothing else.”

Actually as I stated earlier it was introduced on several eng cameras (sd) a year before the HVX200 was announced. I’m not sure of the exact date but here is a press release from 09/2004. As you can see, Panasonic designed it as a storage vehicle for many cameras, it was never designed solely with or around the HVX200 alone.

https://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/news/news04_035.asp

Panasonic originally announced a prosumer camera even a year or 2 before this with the card slots on the left side and it was to use standard CF cards but I don’t think it got off the ground. Once they figured how to raid the cards and realized they could bypass the $12,000.00 head system required for tape recording of HD they knew they had something. The HVX200 came a year or so after 2 or 3 SD models.

AVC-I is the maturing of mpeg4 technology which makes solid state or flash memory even more efficient. As you mentioned earlier this isn’t going to end but we get these plateaus that last a while.

Television and the way we view it is constantly evolving. Who knows what could come out of left field next! For the here and now, with avc, vc-1, ProRes and other advancing compression technologies file sizes are shrinking and storage medias are getting bigger. That’s why I state P2 is solid, solid state. 😉 Today P2 will – On a single 32GB P2 card, professionals can record for 32 minutes in AVC-Intra 100 or DVCPRO HD, 40 minutes in AVC-Intra 100 in native 1080/24p, 80 minutes in AVC-Intra 100 or DVCPRO HD in native 720/24p, 64 minutes in DVCPRO50 and 128 minutes in DVCPRO. With the average re-write life cycle of 150,000 re-writes the same P2 card does what it does today and will be doing it for a long long time to come.

[Jan Crittenden livingston]

[hallwaypd] “But some issues such as using the outdated PCMCIA structure that most computer manufacturers no longer support and the still high cost and limited storage capacity. Granted the later will change, but it leaves the door open for exploitation by companies like Sony.”

Hi Chad,

Another way to look at the CardBusII slot is that it is a proven performer and as such is so reliable that its integrity is beyond any doubt. Over the lifetime of this slot it has probably seen over 30 million insertions on a worlwide basis and in that it is a MATURE interface. The PCMCIA organization does not say it shouldn’t bbe used, it say there is no further need for development. From our perspective, it feels much more solid to use something that is tried and true and has been working well, than to use something new that does not have the same robust track record.

Frankly I fully believe that P2 is here to stay and will continue its domination in the Tapeless workflow field. We now have 4 HD cameras that use it along with 2 SD cameras, one of course has been discontinued. Yes the product is onld enough to have discontinued a model, it has been out for 4 years.

If I were you, I would add a couple of cameras, start small with either the HVX200 or the HPX500, and start with those rentals. But before you start your rental program, take the time to understand the tapeless workflow. Once you do that you will be able to rent it and in fact will come to understand why most guys that are using P2, would really hate going back to tape. Tape is nice, but slow and expensive.

Best,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, HPX500, HVX200, DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems

[Chad Hall]

Scott,

I appreciate your concern, but with all due respects I do try to educate almost everyone that comes into my shop who is not familiar with P2 and the firestore as alternatives to tape. The solution is not as simple as just educating everyone and then the whole world just comes into the P2 light. Most all of the high end shooters just want what their clients are asking for and for whatever reason those clients, NFL Films, Fox or whatever, do not want P2. (By the way, $12 is still much cheaper than a $200 hard drive like you mentioned). I am sure that they are not ‘uneducated’ on the product, it is just for whatever reason at this point in time it is not in their interest to switch.

I know that this technology is exciting and all of us want to usher in new technology like P2, but I have to live in the real world and respond to what the market speaks. A small portion of my business is P2. My HVX200 rents all the time, but the people renting the HVX200 are not the same people that come back and ask for an F900 or a Varicam. They are independent production companies and have a market of their own. I would recommend calling your local rental houses and ask them what percentage of their business involves P2? Let me know what you find. I beleive I am the only rental house in Nashville pushing this and the firestore in town, and it is still a very small percentage of my business.

I’m just trying to be pragmatic and not religious about this subject. P2 is great, but it is not everything yet.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Jan,

Thank you for taking the time to chime in and I greatly appreciate your insight.

My issues lie in the fact that I have done many of the things you have already mentioned. I do understand the workflow have familiarized myself quite well with it through Final Cut Pro. I do stock the HVX200 and it is a great renter, but I rely heavily on the high end business to support my company.

I actually had an HPX500 on hand recently through an investor and was offered through my company. I could not rent it one time. Finally the investor took it back to sell it. The problem, from a rental house standpoint, is that it had the 2/3 inch size yet with the HVX200 menu interface. It was a little too “pro” for the high end guys and to “high end” for the shooters that are more comfortable with the smaller cameras. It was just too hard to break in with people. Now, on the other hand, the gentleman who repped it to me was able to work the camera a few times based on its specs alone to companies that wanted certain minimal specs for HD that the HPX500 was able to meet. They were more interested in those numbers than the actual camera that was used which worked out good for using the HPX500.

But this leads into my point of contention. When I saw the HDX900 at NAB I was very excited and knew this was a great buy. I was the first in Nashville to get this camera and through marketing and some demos to key clients I was able to make this camera a rental success in this market. Now there are probably a half dozen more here in town through other rental providers. As soon as a saw the specs for the HPX3000, I was probably even more excited. Many shooters have needs for 1920x1080P which the HDX900 will not do. They usually go for the F900 (not so much because it is Sony but because of the specs). I thought the HPX3000 was going effectively replace the Varicam and seriously hurt the F900 market. But as I begin to talk to my loyal high end shooters, I found there there was practically no interest soley because of the P2. It is a big disapointment, but I am still hoping to capture some interest in the film-maker turned HD market to use the HPX3000, but for now I cannot buy this camera because the interest is not there.

The HDX900 still continues to be a great renter for me and I have been able to introduce and educate many shooters on the benifits of tapeless aquisition via the Firestore FS-100. Having the ability to roll tape along side of this for the comfort factor has been a huge sell because they have nothing to lose. I have been sending the FS-100 out free from time to time with HDX900 rentals solely to help skeptical shooters see the benefits and ease.

I think P2 has and will continue to dominate the small camera market for now because for that it makes sense. I continue to be very unsure about its future in the high end market, however. I want it to be there, but I still contend that it does indeed have some hurdles to overcome.

Perhaps Panasonic would want to come to Nashville and demo the HPX3000 for the freelance market here to woo the skeptics! ::hint, hint:: wink, wink:: 🙂

Thanks,

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Rennie,

Thank you. I stand corrected.

Should have done my homework better, but I honestly don’t even remember seeing these cameras at NAB. I think it is safe to say, however, that the the HVX200 is more or less responsible for the overall success of the P2 media.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN

[Chad Hall]

Jeremy,

I am with you. I have followed these cameras since I read the first press release. That’s why it even harder for me to accept the fact that there is little interest for these cameras on the rental market. For a production company wanting to buy HD cameras, there is nothing better for the price.

Now the HPX3000 in 2 different models, a P2 and a tape model…. that would make all the difference for today. As much as we still try to fight it, we still live a very tape dominated industry, albeit it is dwindling slowly. Why not go step by step instead of diving head first?

That’s my 2 cents, even though I’ve been told it’s not worth a dime.

Chad Hall
Nashville, TN