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I’m never shooting video again.
RED RULES.
After all the years of folks ‘trying’ to get a film look from video cameras, trying anything in fact, it’s a done deal with a RED camera. It’s look rivals 35mm film (even in 2k). In fact I think we’re seeing the end of film acquisition.
I was honored to talk to the RED user group at NAB, and to introduce Ted Schilowitz at the FCP Supermeet in front of (count ’em) 1500+ FCP users. Apple announced over a MILLION FCP registered FCP users. Man, at the first of these meets I think there was about 50 people… LOL, we’ve come a long way baby! Also honored to show the betas of the RED workflow with AJA’s Kona 3 and RED’s new log and transfer plugin on the NAB show floor. I’ve returned to Denver now with no voice at all. I was SWAMPPED by folks wanting to see the way to edit this new format. (Log and Transfer plugin was just released in beta too if you’re interested). Further honored to see the demo reels for Mammoth HD I did shown all over the floor in like 20 booths, and all day Thursday in the NAB theatre and it’s 100 screens.
The gist of what I said to the RED and FCP crowd was this: I’ve been in video for longer than I want to consider, but in those years I’ve seen 3 watershed events that truly changed the industry. First was 3/4″ video tape machines. They started a business video renaissance. This business is now larger than Hollywood for sure… Second was AVID. Changed everything. Going from linear to non-linear eidting was a no brainer for us all. I bought serial number 004 right off the floor at NAB 1989…
Third was a 1-2 punch by FCP and DV. Working in affordable higher end happened, and the look from DV cameras for 3k rivaled Betacam SP 40k+ of the previous year. A watershed event for sure.
Now? RED. Who in their right mind would buy HD if they can shoot RED, and it works in their workflow? It’s another no brainer folks. For likely around 5-6k next year (by the time you’ve bought the accessories for Scarlet), you’ll be able to shoot 3k… Scarlet will just rock the whole industry I think. Looks like film, sells as film, cost? CHEAP. Consider this… the cost of shooting 35mm on a feature film shooting 50:1 is about 1 million bucks by the time you’ve rented cameras, bought film stock and done a one-light to videotape for editorial… you could buy 15 RED ONE setups for that. and use them next shoot too!
But there’s a “hidden” advantage to shooting RED instead of film. Time. You can see the shoot right on the set in real time and it saves those ‘safety” takes that you end up doing in film. All ya need is an Io HD and a MacBook Pro running FCP with an appropriate HD monitor…I think it should speed up a traditional film shoot by about 40%. This is a savings of Millions of dollars on a feature for sure.
Is it for every shoot? Nope. Not for live broadcast, and likely not for mulit-camera shoots in general (however, Peter Jackson has purchased 10 RED ONE’s)… but for anything else? You bet. It does have a bit of a learning curve, but with Scarlet coming down the pike, it’s over for video shoots for me. Scarlet will be the FIRST camera I’ve ever actually owned. (I’ve rented them throughout my career in the past) RED footage won me totally over during the testing I did for the NAB show, and man was I tempted to talk about it, but the ol’ NDA’s kept me silent for the past couple of months.
So now that the cat is outta da bag, let me say that working in RED is amazing. So wonderful a format. If you’ve ever worked in RAW photography, working in RED is similar. It’s RAW photography at up to 120 fps! Fixing an overexposure is truly amazing… could NEVER do that with video. Making it look like film is also a no brainer. It just does.
There are few times I’ve been this excited about a new technology, and this one has me feeling like a kid at Christmas. WAY fun.
Jerry
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38 Replies
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[Jerry Hofmann] “Who in their right mind would buy HD if they can shoot RED, and it works in their workflow?”
Good caviat…”and it works in their workflow.” Those of un in TV land who don’t need film like pictures. Sports, news, even many MANY documentaries…and stuff with a fast turnaround.
I agree with all of what you said when it pertains to shooting feature and independent film, and possibly moving into dramatic TV shows. But since there are TONS of reality shows, documentaries, home improvement, talk shows…plenty of television that is NOT narrative nor wanting to be film like, there will always be a need for other formats of HD.
I doubt that SURVIVORMAN would walk around with 4 Scarlets in his bag…and all that is needed to offload that footage…while he is trudging thru some jungle.
Personally I am amazed that RED is trying to tout Scarlet as a $3000 camera. Sure, if you don’t want to see what you are shooting. They have to add the basic accessories, THEN announce the price…like you just did. $6000 or so. Rivals EX1 and Panasonic P2 at that point…so many people might replace them or get the Scarlet instead. But for me those are B cameras to the F950 and the Varicam…and all the HD shows I am working on shoot on those.
And knowing Hollywood and their want to stick with the familiar…and how they have to be dragged KICKING AND SCREAMING from it…I will be stuck with those formats for a while.
But thanks for the announcment…it is very exciting. When they get it all working.
Shane
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I don’t really see the advantage of this thing. Looks like a lot of proprietary equipment, un-proven equipment at that, that provides a small amount of image benefit over the EX1/EX3 or a dozen other cameras.
$250 for a “red-grip”. If one of our guys said we needed that we would certainly be telling them to get a grip all right!
Filming is like stills photography, it’s not the gear, it’s the shooter and until Red get some kit on the ground that everybody can buy/rent and test then it might as well be vaporware.
Emma
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Jerry:
Thanks for the report from the front lines. I must say that after attending the first LA RED User Group meeting at Kappa Video last month, I am sold on the RED camera itself, but the RED workflow seemed very buggy and glitchy. I know that it is sorting itself out and will be streamlined probably by the end of this year or early next year, but I asked several other producers there, “if you were shooting a narrative television show or indie feature TODAY, would you use this camera and workflow?” All of us agreed that TODAY, we wouldn’t. The editors we spoke with all related tales of potholes in the road with both the RED files and the proxy files, huge rendering times to convert, etc.
I am also a still photographer (semi-pro – I do get paid for some of my photography) and I can tell you, I never shoot RAW because it’s a PITA. I shoot JPEGs as do most of the professional photographers I know. It all depends on the situation. If I were shooting an editorial portrait and knew I was only going to take 20-30 images, RAW is great, but when I am out shooting hundreds of images at a time as I often do, RAW is too time consuming. I would think that it will be similar with the RED workflow, it all depends on your budget, crew, time, etc. For certain projects, it will be a Godsend, but for others, too much of a PITA.
My .02,
Dan
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“if you were shooting a narrative television show or indie feature TODAY, would you use this camera and workflow?”
New gear that defines chapters in our Professional Life, are great,
.. being a sell it, write it, shoot it, edit it guy..
I can dream about the client that would pay me to shoot the Red….. but if the Red, moderately outfitted is priced at $30K, or the Scarlet at 6K than it puts a lot of pressure on the just announced gear at NAB… .. So wouldn’t it be great if the new Varicam 3700 P2 was priced to give the Red grief.. talk about nice specs for new gear…. and better yet Varicam and P2 have a proven FCP workflow…..
Ya gotta luv the new toys… is it Christmas yet..
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Well, one of the new workflows I showed on the floor are very similar to P2 import. Install the RED “Log and Transfer” plugin, and in the prefs of FCP’s log and transfer tool, RED shows up to transcode to ProRes or ProRes HQ. If P2 import doesn’t bother you, neither will RED import. It’s much the same and it’s just slightly slower. Most won’t even notice the difference. 2k ProRes is only 6% larger a file than 1080. All you folks out there transcoding to it from HDV will get this… it’s about the same feeling as 1080 ProRes post/wise.
True, you have to grade it. But hey, you should have been grading everything you shoot no matter what camera was used. I’ve never seen a video clip not be improved with a bit of color correction.
IT’s VERY DOABLE NOW… People aren’t getting it yet don’t think. 90% of all production away from live stuff could easily be done now with RED in FCP via that ProRes import feature just released. Takes QT 7.4.5 and FCP 6.0.3 with the REDCODE plugins from RED (they are free BTW).
I did this very workflow for the NAB tapes… it’s fast, it works, it’s wonderful.
Anyone thinking RED isn’t ready for primtime, is missing the fact that it already is, and there are several features being shot now in it, some already in post, more on the way, TV? dunno, but anything scripted and shot cinema style i.e. single camera, will be as easy as a P2 workflow. If that’s not in your workflow… shoot video. I won’t be doing that unless it’s the only way to get the job done though. Can’t get over how easy and fast it is to get RED to look like the best images you’ve ever seen. This isn’t slower by enough for it to offset the look you end up with… no way.
Until you’ve tried it, you don’t really get it. Copping, resizing, re-framing 4k is a miracle. You can get cu’s from wide angles folks, and STILL have full res HD in the end.
Your pictures will look like 35. THERE ISN’T A VIDEO CAMERA IN THE WORLD THAT RIVALS 35 for less than a new home… end of story. RED rivals 35… for a LOT less than a new home. Scarlet for less than nice motorcycle guys… You want a pro looking HD tape? One that looks like you spent a zillion dollars to shoot? RED’s the answer.
Jerry
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Author: “Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4” Click here
Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D
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RED really is amazing stuff. In a way it’s even sharper and more detailed than 35 since there’s no gate jitter, no grain, nothing other than pixel for pixel data.
The post workflow is still a bit all over the place – but it’s more a function of the sheer amount of options you have to convert out footage than anything else.
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I think that because the post workflow has SOOOO many options, it confuses people… But the Log and Transfer to ProRes workflow should be pretty familiar to most, and is exactly like working in P2 actually. Takes about 3 minutes to import a 1 minute clip right now, but hey, it’s just as fast as ProRes HD in FCP once done. It’s an improvement over the proxy workflows because it doesn’t require a really fast mac to edit the footage. It could be transcoded on an intel machine, then edited on a G5 dual even… or even a MacBook Pro etc… it’s very doable now, and it’s not really a slowish workflow at all.
It does have to be graded though. It’s raw photography. BUT that adds options you NEVER had in video, and quite frankly, everyone should be grading their footage no matter what shot it…
Jerry
Apple Certified Trainer
Author: “Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4” Click here
Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D
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totally, the Log and Transfer option is going to be AWESOME.
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If you’ve not seen the footage, then how can you judge the benefit? Check it out in a web stream anyway here: https://www.mammothhd.com/MHD_RED5A.html
This footage was shown all over the floor at NAB this year… I got a ton of complements on it.. I did the grading and the edit. It was fast using the ProRes HQ import workflow. Grading it was a snap (didn’t take longer than video, actually took less time because it’s so responsive and predictable). It’s not hard, nor is it particularly time consuming as long as you know how. (there’s the gotcha, you have to learn to color correct if you’ve not done it in the past and relied on the substandard color processing done in video cameras). Don’t know of any series TV that doesn’t go thru grading, video or film actually.. they all do already, so don’t see where this will be a slower workflow actually… if they aren’t being graded, they are very low end..
It’s huge Emma… it’s like 35.. finishing in 4k is doable in Scratch, and this can be printed to film… (so can 2k for that matter) there’s no ex series nada that will compare to the look. Not even close. This stuff fools everyone. It looks like 35mm. not 16, not nice video attempting to look like film… it looks like 35mm. Ever wondered why your stuff doesn’t look like a Hollywood feature? With RED it will.
This camera will be so obliquitous within a couple of years, (there’s to be 5000+ RED ONE cameras in the field by the end of this summer alone) that whether or not you like the idea of grading footage, if you’re a post house, you’d better get ready to do it. there’s going to be a HUGE number of shoots in RED. There already are. Just try to rent one in LA.. they are all booked… there’s a reason too… it’s the look you simply cannot get from video, and it costs piles of money less than shooting film. It’s a crop you simply can’t get away with shooting HD. It’s better than HD, it’s bigger than HD, it color corrects finer than HD etc… it’s better. If you don’t believe me, rent one and try it… it’s going to blow your mind when you can fix over exposure… even fix over exposure with secondaries and not touch the rest of the exposure. Try that with video… it simply can’t be done when the processing was done in camera.
My images mean something to me, and if I can get the look of 35 for the cost of a run of the mill HD camera, I’m done. If it takes longer to ingest, so be it. It’s not that slow now (with the log and transfer plugin just released by RED), and faster macs will make it faster, updated software will too, but for now? it’s fast enough for just about anybody who is shooting single camera and is editing the show, delivering in HD or SD… Kona 3 does a LUT for editorial before you send to Color for the real deal… or even use the CC 3way, but Color rocks…
Jerry
Apple Certified Trainer
Author: “Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4” Click here
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Jerry
Welcome to the future – come on in!
A couple of years ago I showed a friend (who is a talented camera operator and now a commercial DP) a story about RED on a gadget blog. It all sounded kind of implausible at the time, but there was big money behind it and they seemed so SINCERE.
A week later I saw him again and my friend had put down a deposit on the camera. It was a fully refundable $1000 – he figured it was worth the ‘not really a’ risk. He spends a lot of his time shooting video with Pro35 adapters etc., and just wanted to be able to get the film look, with film lenses. He didn’t really care about the 4K. Sure, it seemed to future-proof the camera, and he thought it might open up new avenues to him, but as he said for $17,500, if it shot good looking 1080p with 35mm depth of field it was still a bargain…
Fair to say he owes me a beer now – he took delivery of camera number six hundred and something a couple of months ago – long before most of the hire companies here got theirs. He makes extra hiring his to them until their cameras arrive!
As soon as we started testing it, it was clear the camera was something special. We had spent over a year watching test stills posted, and they looked great. Seeing them move was something else. Even the stock RED lens and accessories were excellent, and cost a lot less than many others – such as ARRI! The poster who complained about £250 handles misses the point here, and has obviously never shopped for film accessories – most of REDs are a steal, especially the glass.
He has some high profile commercial work coming up for it now – and I assist with the post workflow and sometimes on set for him. On set with CF cards, it’s very similar to swapping mags on a film camera, doesn’t really break the flow. He also has the RED Drive for continuous shooting. Backing up on set is essential. One thing is certain – this ISN’T video to shoot. It is a camera with 35mm depth and focus requirements, it’s heavy (but shoulderable nonetheless). These problems will be allieviated (eg. focus) with Scarlet and with Epic (which is more powerful but lighter apparently). Oh yeah – and a year after he bought his camera, if he wants to upgrade to Epic, the new 5K camera, they’ll give him FULL NEW COST ($17,500) towards the more expensive Epic. Unbelieveable, and unprecedented in the pro world.
What about post? Yup, there are some kinks, but really not so many now. If we shoot 4k, FCP right now will allow me to import using log and transfer as 2K files – not 16×9 yet, but 2:1. I can resize when I’m done to 16:9 when we do the final export. In the meantime, my Blackmagic multibridge (as well as the Kona’s of course) play back the 2:1 2K files perfectly on my 1080p monitor. The downsized 2k files look AMAZING. Better than anything I have ever had the pleasure of working with. I can apply a ‘look’ to the RAW footage in log and transfer I have set in REDALERT, the free software RED provide for outputting DPX sequences.
RED also provide – for free! – a cut-down version of Assimilate’s Scratch called REDCINE. This allows me (via third party software called Crimson) to cut my shots in FCP (via the proxy files the camera automatically creates, no rendering) and export an EDL to REDCINE, where I can do pan and scan on the 4k files – a wonderful process – and one-light the RAW footage (so much lattitude!) before round-tripping to FCP again as whatever you like – ProRes in my case.
At NAB RED showed Color working natively with r3d files (the RedRAW camera footage) via an as yet unreleased Color update – RED are very tight with Apple. When this is released (within the year we hope!) it will allow everything to be done within FCS. Color will not, however, allow you to work with 4K, as I understand it – not yet. Still, 2K is great – especially as the camera now shoots up to 120 fps at 2K.
Wow – I know this is long and gushy, but anyone working and producing with FCP has to look at RED. Scarlet will be another leap forward. Everyone I work with is falling over themselves to shoot on it, post issues real or imagined, so you’ll come across it sooner or later. Right now, if we want to shoot for TV, HD, we use the RED and log and transfer makes it about as taxing as shooting P2. Ingest is not real time, it’s around 3:1 right now, but that’s not a deal-breaker unless you are shooting a lot every day or multiple cameras. Even on a doco, you’d only shoot a few hours a day, and that’s now an easy overnight ingest.
RED did what they said they would, sooner than anyone said they would, at the price they said they would. And they p*ssed off a lot of people doing it. I think they like that. Some people don’t – and I have varying opinions about the REDUser forum where RED hand out product titbits to a mixture of fanboys and pros. It’s a lot of noise to wade through, unlike the COW. The noise was so bad after the NAB announcement the company founder took a leave of absence from the website. I think he was incredulous that he announced Scarlet and Epic, and got complaints about the features… Mind you, don’t know many billionaires who post regularly on user groups either.
So – longest post ever. If anyone on the COW want to know what it’s really like to work on RED footage in FCP ask away. Yes, I’m a believer, but I’m also a long-time FCP user and sceptic, I promise to tell it like it is.
One last thing from NAB. Next year RED will launch REDRAY alongside Scarlet. It has 4 HD-SDI outs and 4 HDMI outs for 4K playback, which you can play from a CF card slot on the device – making it effectively a deck for the RED camera. Calls on the user-group for it to include deck-control have been met favourably by the company. Oh, and it also has a DVD drive in it. Using a standard DVD-R9, RED claim they can compress onto and playback 2 hours of 4k footage, using new compression algorithms. Well, they DO have Grahame Nattress on board.
So, it’s a 4K movie distribution device and a RED deck. How much you ask? 5K, 3K? 30K? RED claim the target price is UNDER $1,000. And I have to believe them – I’ve seen them deliver.
So if you pre-order one, buy me a beer in 2009 – ok?
Ben
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