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I guess it’s So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!
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How can I be proving your point? The DSLR revolution predates the AF100, yet you’re disagreement with Herb is based on the fact that the AF100 meets the same needs as DSLR, so who needs DSLRs. Your disagreement with Herb ignores the giant price difference between a 5D and the cheapest Red.
The fact remains that the wide acceptance of the DSLRs, for a variety of very “pro” reasons, caused the birth of the AF100-type product lines – both in video and in the continuing development of DSLR lines. Once they allow DSLRs to record HDMI in 4:2:2 color, the dam is going to break again.
This is the very opposite of FCP X, where a DSLR has been dumped on us, and our video cameras have been EOLed, while we have yet to even find out what we like or dislike about the DSLRs at all.Apple has done what Panny and Sony and Canon are doing – but exactly backwards. Read what I said before about putting out the “toys” to see what sticks, and growing your main product lines around what we, the users, like.
Apple hasn’t done anything remotely like this.Take a hypothetical.
Imagine FCP 8 was released. It’s a lot like FCP 7, but has a 64-bit base, can harness all the cpus, can efficiently harness the gpu, and has a color-correction system similar to an $800 editor called Edius. That’s it. Nothing else changed. It’d be a minor upgrade, but I’d find it acceptable. Oh, and don’t kill Color and DVDSP.
Now they throw out iMovie Advanced under its real name. After a year they look around and see what people are saying about it. Do they really like the magnetic thingy or not? Are they really able to type faster because of skimming or not? Are the filters really as liberating as advertised or not? Do they find colorsync to be an alternative to broadcast monitoring or not?
Now they start on FCP 9, taking in the info gathered from a year of watching and listening, seeing what’s going on in the webosphere and in the broadcastsphere – and FCP 8 could have evolved without breaking.That’s what the camera manufacturers are doing. That’s not what Apple did or is doing.
Instead, Apple gave us few options. Stick with your almost dead video camera or buy a DSLR, but we’re not offering any more models of your dying video camera. And if you think onboard audio, jamming sync, and a bit-depth capable of pulling hair-detail from a greenscreen is a priority, then you’re just too small a niche to be concerned with. Geesh. What do you think we’re going to do?That’s the way I see your analogy. No-one is saying FCP X has no future with anyone. We’re just saying it’s unusable for our everyday needs, and we doubt it will ever catch up – because if it was intended to catch up, it would have been built with a tad more insight. We don’t believe Apple is that stupid. We just think Apple has its own agenda.
Sell more point-and-shoots.
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[Herb Sevush] “As far as speed goes I can definitely tell you that for my workflow FCPX is slower than my 20 year old EMC2.”
Maybe because it doesn’t exist yet for you, but has been announced? You mean to tell me if you fired up your 20 year old machine, you’d be able to ingest a tape/tapeless 6 cam multicam in HD? This is getting pretty silly.
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[Walter Soyka] “The only reason the camera is even remotely usable for video is because the camera itself is open to first- and third-party extension.”
[Jeremy Garchow] “Can you explain what you mean here? I see it as a remarkably closed system.”
I meant this in a somewhat naive sense — interchangeable lenses and the tripod mount enable all the rest of the preposterous lens adapters and camera stabilization systems in use.
Outside of the scene files, all the image processing is very closed and limiting.
[Jeremy Garchow] “Did you see foolcut yet? With the help of AE and PPro, you can get an honest to goodness XML from an FCPX timeline, and this is with no API. Almost all of FCPXs timeline nomenclatures are supported in an Applescript that is in v0.9, and the developer doesn’t tout himself as a code writer.”
No, but that sounds really intriguing!
[Jeremy Garchow] “No question, in my mind it’s the right tool. FCPX is certainly not there yet, although if you need to organize 1000 shots quickly, it is definitely the right tool.”
I think that still depends on your workflow and feature requirements.
I’m not opposed to all of the concepts that FCPX introduces, but I do wish they had retained some of the good interface ideas from the old timeline.
As some of these features get added, either by third parties or by Apple, it’ll be interesting to see this debate shift back away from raw system capabilities and limitations and back to the interface choices Apple has made.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Walter Soyka] “I meant this in a somewhat naive sense — interchangeable lenses and the tripod mount enable all the rest of the preposterous lens adapters and camera stabilization systems in use.”
I see. Thanks for that.
[Walter Soyka] “No, but that sounds really intriguing!”
Oh man. Check this out:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/344/3483
works with any QT media, not just Red based media. Here’s the money shot:
It seems to work, I tested it yesterday, but haven’t really put it through it’s paces or anything.
[Walter Soyka] “As some of these features get added, either by third parties or by Apple, it’ll be interesting to see this debate shift back away from raw system capabilities and limitations and back to the interface choices Apple has made.”
And that will be when the rubber hits the road, as they say.
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Yes, it’s bold isn’t it? It is different, and things are changing. There are no more bins in real life, shooting ratios are skyrocketing, data describing data is becoming a necessity, not a luxury so maybe it’s time to rethink some things? I’m not saying FCPX is right or wrong, but it does make you think. Are tracks really the most efficient way to work?”
This is where it’s complicated for me. Pervasive metadata is absolutely the way of the future.
However, I think tracks — or more precisely, direct manual spatial positioning of media within the timeline — could work in conjunction with clip connections and metadata. I wrote about this at some length a couple months ago. I think the absence of tracks unnecessarily removes a very useful organizational tool.
I see this as a huge step forward in one area, but a huge step backwards in another. I fear Apple may have painted themselves into a corner, but as you say, it’s certainly possible that the language is still being written.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
You got me there Jeremy – I was being hyperbolic (or full of s**t) – EMC2 couldn’t actually import anything other than NTSC and it really couldn’t handle SD fully, it was strictly an off-line editor. But if you could convert the files I could definitely cut a 6 camera show on it faster than you could on FCPX and that’s not exactly a big step forward.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
[Craig Seeman] “Kinda looks like the MacPro replacement I’ve been describing. As I’ve said, like a MacMini only bigger to accommodate 16 lane PCIe GPU or two and that’s it. At least someone’s been thinking in my direction. My hunch is Apple will do this as it covers a broader range of needs than the MacPro.”
It looks to me like a relatively elegant workaround for the lack of availability of the right hardware in the first place. Sonnet is specifically positioning this as a way to make a MacMini into a metadata controller.
Sticking the word Server after MacMini as Apple has done doens’t make it so. There are other considerations for servers outside of even processing speed, RAM and connectivity as we have been discussing in the context of workstations. Redundant power supplies? LOM?
Yes, this may cover a broader range of needs, but again, it will leave some previously-served niches behind, and some users will have to look elsewhere going forward.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
RenderBreak Blog – What I’m thinking when my workstation’s thinking
Creative Cow Forum Host: Live & Stage Events -
[Glen Hurd] “The DSLR revolution predates the AF100, yet you’re disagreement with Herb is based on the fact that the AF100 meets the same needs as DSLR, so who needs DSLRs.”
I don’t know where you might have extracted this.
My “disagreement” with Herb is that FCPX is not that much different than when DSLRs first came out. It took a while before they became a “standard”. I have no idea if this will happen to FCPX or not. Today, it can’t be a standard as it’s hobbled.
[Glen Hurd] “This is the very opposite of FCP X, where a DSLR has been dumped on us, and our video cameras have been EOLed, while we have yet to even find out what we like or dislike about the DSLRs at all.”
This has changed, FCP7 is back on sale. There have been plenty of recent cameras that aren’t being built anymore. As I said in another post, if we had more NLE choices that were interchangeable, would we use them more?
[Glen Hurd] “Apple hasn’t done anything remotely like this.”
What do you think FCPX is? It is a public beta test that is hobbled very purposefully. This is Apple’s way. Remember the first iPhone that didn’t have any apps? It was webapps only? Do you think when they released that first iPhone that they new there was going to be an App Store within iTunes? Why do you think they did it that way? Why do you think they just didn’t release the floodgates of the Apps in iTunes store? They publicly test the waters (and make you pay money for it), make sure the foundation is going to hold and then adjust. This is what I see with FCPX.
[Glen Hurd] “Imagine FCP 8 was released. It’s a lot like FCP 7, but has a 64-bit base, can harness all the cpus, can efficiently harness the gpu, and has a color-correction system similar to an $800 editor called Edius. That’s it. Nothing else changed. It’d be a minor upgrade, but I’d find it acceptable. Oh, and don’t kill Color and DVDSP.”
I have explained this before on other threads, I really don’t think this was techinncally possible without a complete rewrite. While they were at it, they changed a lot of things around to meet the demand of today and perhaps tomorrow’s environment. Maybe they missed, I don’t know. It was no longer 15+ year old purchased and patchworked code, it is new code written and designed by Apple.
[Glen Hurd] “Stick with your almost dead video camera or buy a DSLR, but we’re not offering any more models of your dying video camera.”
This happens all the time.
[Glen Hurd] “No-one is saying FCP X has no future with anyone. We’re just saying it’s unusable for our everyday needs, and we doubt it will ever catch up – because if it was intended to catch up, it would have been built with a tad more insight. “
Yeah, I’ve said that I can’t use it everyday either. We don’t use DSLRs on every shoot, but we do sometimes. I can’t agree about your “never catching up” argument unless Apple is completely lying on their public FAQ. Also as I mentioned before, I don’t think we can see all of the insight that is in there quite yet as it is a different language. Do you own FCPX? Just curious.
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[Herb Sevush] “But if you could convert the files I could definitely cut a 6 camera show on it faster than you could on FCPX and that’s not exactly a big step forward.”
Yeah, but FCPX can handle HD and EMC2 can’t. FCPX simply does not have multicam availability yet, so it’s hard to say how it will react in that regard.
The OS9 Media100i system I used to work could mix audio and do more stacked rt effects than FCP7 ever will be able to. FCP7 is not a fast NLE. It is crazy how fast FCP7 is achieving mythological status.
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[Glen Hurd] “That’s the way I see your analogy. No-one is saying FCP X has no future with anyone. We’re just saying it’s unusable for our everyday needs, and we doubt it will ever catch up – because if it was intended to catch up, it would have been built with a tad more insight. We don’t believe Apple is that stupid. We just think Apple has its own agenda. “
Yup.
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