I guess it’s So Long and Thanks for all the Fish!

[Glen Hurd]

You might enjoy this 🙂

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Fapc2Qx9jM

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[Craig Seeman]

[Darren Kelly] “To make a long story short, the computer system with 4GB of RAID, 6 cores (2.7) and one of the top video cards will be about $1,000-all in.”

A well equipped HP Z400 would cost more than that. It’s not clear what, if any, corners you might have cut. Is your GPU a nice nVidia card so you can take advantage of CUDA?

If you’re a follower of this forum it is my subjective opinion that FCPX and future desktops will be quite suitable for many “professional” workflows. Granted the future is not the present so I don’t question the move you and others must make. Do make sure that your PC is appropriately equipped. In my own price hunting, PCs aren’t that much less expensive than some comparably equipped Macs and can even be more expensive, because you can add much more to the. BTW I think Thunderbolt has an impressive future as video i/o and fast storage is released for it.

[Dominic Deacon]

I think the worst thing about this for Apple is that it’s got Final Cut users looking round at the competition. When I got my first editing kit I was told by every single person I asked- including a bunch of industry pros- that it had to be Apple and it had to be Final Cut. AVID was apparently a mess, the rest were just toys and only a fool would consider doing serious graphics work on a PC. Since then I just assumed I was using the best gear and didn’t look elsewhere.

Since the release of FCPX I’ve played with a bunch of the others and found that they’re not just competitive with Final Cut 7 but they make it look archaic in many ways. That video is a great example of the advantages on some of the other platforms. On top of which they are just so much faster. In the end I went with Edius- I just need a pure video editor and don’t need the gadgets- but was almost equally impressed with Avid and Premiere.

And PC hardware is seriously cheap. I got an i7 3.4ghz, 16gb RAM and nVidia graphics that runs all these programs lightning fast for significantly cheaper than the smallest iMac. The computers been as much of a revelation as the programs. Never crashes and no spinning beach balls. I hate the beach ball. It’s very hard to justify the $2k plus (AUD) that Apple charges for the larger models.

[Craig Seeman]

[Dominic Deacon] “I think the worst thing about this for Apple is that it’s got Final Cut users looking round at the competition.”

Agreed but that’s because Apple left a void rather than a long term transition plan from FCS to FCPX. I think this is the crux of the problem. Apple didn’t do this when they moved from OS9 to OSX nor PPC to Intel. I still can’t help but believe something blew up internally. I can’t see this as a deliberate plan as it doesn’t follow any of their past history.

[Dominic Deacon] “that it had to be Apple and it had to be Final Cut. AVID was apparently a mess,”

I go back a lot farther and it’s interesting to see how Avid went from dominant to mess. FCP was the toy. With third party support and improvements, FCP became a very cost effective alternative. Apple may be banking on that again but the roadmap must be different this time. Then it was Mac Avid users who were nervous about Avid’s commitment to Mac and the cost of upgrading Avid vs getting a new FCP system.

Currently Apple’s in a bit of a void. MacPros may be dated technology compared to current PC workstations. That will change but many people don’t want to bank on uncertainty. There will be new and better MacPros but I suspect Apple is waiting for newer Intel chips. That’s just my speculation though. Since Apple did an “instant kill” on FCS without a technical means to transition, they created a serious problem for themselves. It’s easy for many facilities to justify moving to a more powerful PC and using Premiere or Avid. I think Apple will make major improvements to both software and hardware over the next year but many facilities can’t wait. Even an FCS system on life support has limitations compared to the competition.

Apple’s one hope is that the hardware and software improvements are a compelling cost and feature set and a marketing strategy to match.

[Dominic Deacon] “And PC hardware is seriously cheap. I got an i7 3.4ghz, 16gb RAM and nVidia graphics that runs all these programs lightning fast for significantly cheaper than the smallest iMac.”

Granted one can get a more powerful PC than a Mac Pro and iMacs have limited expansion, I’d be cautious to generalize about price. Once you put together a powerful professional PC workstation it’s not going to be that much cheaper than some Macs. Look at what a decked out HPZ400 or Z800 workstation costs. Consider why the cost what they do compared to other PCs.

I suspect Apple is banking on that most people moving to Premiere or Avid in the short term are not going through the major expense to move to Windows and that that would allow Apple to buy time to develop software to give people a compelling reason to upgrade their Macs to newer Macs when the time comes.Several things have to happen for that to come to pass though. Whether Apple succeeds is anybody’s guess but I’d have to think the R&D going into FCPX is also happening concurrently with other software and hardware to attempt that roadmap.

None of this explains why Apple left themselves wide open with current MacPros and FCPX, to switch to Windows. Keep in mind that’s only a small portion of the market segment in the short term. Many non broadcast/film pros may find FCPX on iMacs and MacBookPros, with multi core i7 and OpenCL GPUs, to be very powerful even if FCPX is “feature deficient” for many workflows.

[Dominic Deacon]

[Craig Seeman] ” Once you put together a powerful professional PC workstation it’s not going to be that much cheaper than some Macs. Look at what a decked out HPZ400 or Z800 workstation costs. Consider why the cost what they do compared to other PCs”

I’m not really a computer person- I’m a screenwriter primarily- and don’t really grasp the difference between a “professional PC workstation” and what I’ve purchased. The parts I would assume are the most important- like the Intel processors and nVidia cards- are the same so what is it that sets these Professional PC workstations apart? Whatever the case, what I got for $AUD1,300 runs even complex processes in AE and AVID without pausing for breath and I suppose that’s all I can ask of it.

[Craig Seeman] “I suspect Apple is banking on that most people moving to Premiere or Avid in the short term are not going through the major expense to move to Windows”

It might have been a good idea to wait and see what Apple has coming but that wasn’t an option for me. I’m going to be editing a feature for the next 8 months or so and didn’t want to go through that again with FCP 7 and an old iMac. Buying a new iMac at this moment felt like a serious gamble.

[Craig Seeman]

[Dominic Deacon] “I’m not really a computer person- I’m a screenwriter primarily- and don’t really grasp the difference between a “professional PC workstation” and what I’ve purchased.”

Of course what you’ve purchased may be entirely adequate for you needs. One doesn’t have to have a workstation. There are many things that make a workstation better suited for certain demanding situations ranging from ease of maintenance, component compatibility testing, power supply to support expansion, number of PCIe slots and lanes. It’s possible that your system is perfectly adequate. The painful part would be finding out that it falls down in some specific workflow and you can’t easily expand. For example, Blackmagic cards are tested compatible only with certain motherboards… but that may not be important if you’re not using those cards for example.

[Dominic Deacon] “It might have been a good idea to wait and see what Apple has coming but that wasn’t an option for me.”

As is the case for others as well. Apple has a big void until FCPX and MacPros are updated. Some people can’t wait and can’t get buy using FCP7 which requires workflows that one wouldn’t need with Premiere on an computer with CUDA supported GPU.

[Dominic Deacon] ” I’m going to be editing a feature for the next 8 months or so and didn’t want to go through that again with FCP 7 and an old iMac. Buying a new iMac at this moment felt like a serious gamble.”

Eight months is a long time. As per the Keycode Media conference video, many facilities aren’t making their purchasing decisions until November and Educational Institutions until next spring. Personally I wouldn’t make a purchase now for a project starting in eight months. Of course one may want to go through a learning curve but both Avid and Premiere work on Mac and as you get closer to the date, you can jump based on the then available technologies. In eight months, Intel may have new CPUs out so even Windows computers may be better/faster than the current crop. Hardware gets dated so quickly that generally I’d recommend waiting until you hit the “must move” wall to make a hardware purchase.

It’s quite possible that you’ll get the ROI on your purchase within 8 months though, given what you paid, and then you can move again as needed.

[Dennis Radeke]

[Craig Seeman] ”
Granted one can get a more powerful PC than a Mac Pro and iMacs have limited expansion, I’d be cautious to generalize about price. Once you put together a powerful professional PC workstation it’s not going to be that much cheaper than some Macs. Look at what a decked out HPZ400 or Z800 workstation costs. Consider why the cost what they do compared to other PCs.”

I’ve seen this a couple of times from you Craig and I think you need to do a little more research on the PC side. In a general sense, you’re absolutely right, a high-end, professional system cannot be had for chump change. However, to systematically dismiss the total cost of ownership differences between Mac and PC for ALL video editors isn’t appropriate either.

There are a couple of key points that I would make here:
– A similarly equipped PC is generally less expensive than it’s Mac counterpart. I was excited for a time when this wasn’t so and Mac’s were basically the same price, but it seems (again in general) that PC’s costs are less expensive than similarly equipped Macs.
– The HP Z line (of which I am a huge fan) is a product line and not a single chassis with different guts like the current MacPro. This gives you a ton more pricing and configuration options. If you need to go cheap but have a PCI-E slot or two, you can go with the Z400. If you need more power and a slim chassis design, there is the Z600. If you need monster power (and a better tooless chassis) then there is the Z800.
– That ‘decked out’ PC that costs as much or more than a Mac Pro will generally run rings around the MacPro. This isn’t a scientific fact from yours truly, just my general observations at having used both platforms for many years. Many other people have taken the time to run tests and I believe my statement has a lot of support.
– Choice…There are MANY more CPU, GPU and motherboard choices that you can make with any single vendor. In this tech-aware/educated world, we as content creators can make many of the choices that Apple makes for us. We can create the best balanced system (which is particularly important for Adobe users) for us based upon our current budget. This choice can also be represented by purchasing a PC from a vendor like HP, or a white-box from a video reseller or perhaps the most exciting of all – build your own box. On the Apple side, you have a choice of where you build the Mac – Apple website, Apple Store, Apple dealer: you get the same net results but not the same control and choice.

And since we’re picking on HP and I’ve seen some FUD around it…even if HP spins of the PC unit to another company or as a new entity, it will be the largest PC company in the world. We’ve also seen a successful example of this in the past with IBM spinning off it’s PC business to Lenovo.

Cheers,
Dennis – Adobe guy

[Dennis Radeke]

I’ll toss this into the fire as well since I’m sounding very ‘pro-pc’ today (though I’m not!)… 😉

I would be interested in comments on this article:
https://www.cringely.com/2011/08/is-the-mac-pro-dead/

[Craig Seeman]

[Dennis Radeke] “However, to systematically dismiss the total cost of ownership differences between Mac and PC for ALL video editors isn’t appropriate either.”

I didn’t if you read my comment completely. I stated that his system might be entirely adequate for his needs. Many people don’t need workstations. Please don’t take my comments out of context.

One thing common to Macs is that they tend to be much more “inflexible” (limited options). You get what Apple gives you. Heck my own MacPro 2008 is using an ATI Radeon 5770 which Apple doesn’t consider an “authorized” combination.

[Dennis Radeke] “- That ‘decked out’ PC that costs as much or more than a Mac Pro will generally run rings around the MacPro. “

While I didn’t use that language I’ve said as much. Again please read what I wrote. I said MacPros are behind.

[Craig Seeman]

[Dennis Radeke] “I’ll toss this into the fire as well since I’m sounding very ‘pro-pc’ today (though I’m not!)… ;-)”

Dennis you certainly do sound pro PC and there’s no shame in that. But there’s the other side that some would argue. Limited hardware variation means easier support for many. Downtime costs money. Not everyone has an onsite engineer. Not everyone is an expert systems builder or troubleshooter.