How long would it take you to cut a six-part documentary series?

[Shane Ross]

I cut long form docs for a living, and mine, while “hour long,” are actually about 44-45 min. The majority of the ones I cut have producers who write scripts based on interviews and including narration. Even the reality shows I cut have story producers who write rough narration, and pull selects for scene pods. So…given that…we get about 5 weeks for a rough cut, and then another 1-2 to address notes and lock picture. If you add another 5 min to that, you might add another week and a few days…so just over 8 weeks. Per episode.

6×8= 48 weeks. So alone…almost a year. Perhaps longer since you aren’t experienced cutting long form, and might take time to get to speed. I know that it took me time to figure out promos and short form cutting.

Now, the shows I work on have 3-4 editors on one show, so we might get the rough cut done in 2-3 weeks, and then another week to address notes and lock picture.

Now, there are other docs that aren’t written by producers. But are a collaboration between them and the editors. We have “scenes,” which are basically sections that the producers have outlined…that we put on index cards and figure out the best order, and then edit the “pods” or “scenes.” And then I’ll cut those scenes and see how they work in that order…and then maybe go back and re-arrange. These take longer to do…can be between 6-7 weeks for the rough cut.

Now…add teasers and trailers and EPKs and you are tacking on another week or two…you know how long those take, that’s your territory.

Shane
Little Frog Post
Read my blog, Little Frog in High Def

[Jon Doughtie]

Another thing to consider is – have THEY done it before?

If they are also new to multi-part long form dynamic, you will both be learning a lot of things while attempting to complete the project.

It will be a good idea to ask even seemingly obvious questions, and close as many communication gaps as possible.

System:
Dell Precision T7600 (x2)
Win 7 64-bit
32GB RAM
Adobe CC 2014 (as of 7/2015)
256GB SSD system drive
4 internal media drives RAID 5
Typically cutting short form from HD MP4 and P2 MXF.

[Tom Vaughan-mountford]

Hi Shane, Hi Jon –

Thanks for the input, it’s very helpful indeed. The guys pitching the idea to me are (thankfully) both very experienced in directing and financing large projects, but haven’t had much day-to-day experience of post-production for perhaps twenty years or more. I rather look forward to the mutual learning experience as some of their past projects are rather enviable!

I work with two other editors, and also know a couple of good freelancers – so it’s handy knowing how to break into pods/scenes. Getting a better idea now of how this could work.

Tom Mountford
Senior Editor
JMS Group Ltd

[Walter Biscardi]

So many questions need to be answered. Logs? Transcriptions? Producer working with you or not? And that’s just three of about 50 questions I would have to ask the client.

I’ll tell you this. We cut two feature documentaries here. Each had over 300 hours of raw materials for a 90 minute feature. Each had zero transcriptions, notes or scripts.

Each was cut over a 4 year period. Took 6 months just to create the first cut of each.

Over that 4 year period, we probably actually worked just over 2 years to create the features. I was actually working on “Good Eats” at the time so I would have to leave the documentary for 6 – 8 weeks at a time when that show was in production. I also had an Assistant Editor working with me, and for finish enlisted a Colorist and sound designer.

Depending on how many notes and materials the client is providing me. If I’m working by myself I would expect about 2 years of work to deliver that IF the client is providing with me a lot of notes and help. I’d want at least 2 AE’s working with me on a project like that.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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[Tom Vaughan-mountford]

Hi Walter – I learned Apple Color with your tutorial discs many moons ago!

I definitely think the client may have underestimated the amount of material they will accumulate between now and late 2017 (their anticipated delivery deadline) especially in consideration of interviews – from my experience in corporate video I’ve got accustomed to viewing twenty-minute takes of a stumbling speaker, trying to extract just a couple of decent soundbites out of them!

It’s very interesting to understand how much more work is going to be required with regards notes and transcriptions – the transcription alone is something I’d definitely consider outsourcing to another agency. I’m usually just given a thirty-second guide-track and a single sheet of instructions to work with!

Tom Mountford
Senior Editor
JMS Group Ltd

[David Roth weiss]

Have the transcripts done by pros, and with timecode. It’s not cheap, but the ROI on transcripts is invaluable. Keep in mind, that every person working on the project can have a copy of the transcripts on their computer, their phone, their iPad, etc., enabling everyone to research sound bites with timecode from anywhere. Transcripts literally allow everyone you’re working with to be “on the same page” at all times, and they allow you to locate and select sound bites much quicker, because you don’t have to play clips in realtime to listen to what’s being said other than the first time when you select good sound bites an use a highlighter to mark them up on the pages.

David Roth Weiss
Director/Editor/Colorist
David Weiss Productions

David is a Creative COW contributing editor and a forum host of the Apple Final Cut Pro forum.

[Jon Doughtie]

Delivery in 2017? Nothing shot yet? A yellow flag at the very least.

If they have been “out of the pool” post-wise for a couple of decades, they *might* be thinking currently technology will speed the process up markedly. I always tell folks any time gained in the tech gets consumed in the exploration of creative options. Potentially better end product, but seldom any significant time savings.

System:
Dell Precision T7600 (x2)
Win 7 64-bit
32GB RAM
Adobe CC 2014 (as of 7/2015)
256GB SSD system drive
4 internal media drives RAID 5
Typically cutting short form from HD MP4 and P2 MXF.

[Tom Vaughan-mountford]

Indeed! I think the schedule for progressing the project will largely be decided by the access to funding and broadcaster commitment, but I have a feeling late-2017 will creep considerably further back – and I’m pretty confident in telling them that, from a post-production perspective, they’re going to need to allow more time!

Yes, non-linear editing = more time for clients to agonize for hours over decisions you used to make on their behalf in a split second! 🙂

Tom Mountford
Senior Editor
JMS Group Ltd

[Walter Biscardi]

It’s very interesting to understand how much more work is going to be required with regards notes and transcriptions – the transcription alone is something I’d definitely consider outsourcing to another agency. I’m usually just given a thirty-second guide-track and a single sheet of instructions to work with!

It took over a month to have everything transcribed, at least what I had at that time. Then I sat and read everything like a book for about 6 weeks before I looked at one frame of video.

Just the media management alone is a massive project. Even though I was working through Good Eats and had a great handle on that workflow at the time, managing something this large was daunting and I did a lot of things wrong for the first 6 months which I got corrected.

Now managing near petabytes of material is a breeze, but at the time, boy howdy that was a wake up call. No matter how much planning the clients say they are going to provide, it’s never enough. 6 x 50 is going to be a ton of work and require a ton of media management. If either side is weak, the project will get ugly in a hurry. Good luck on both fronts.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media

Craft and Career Advice & Training from real Working Creative Professionals

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[Andrew Kimery]

The kind of doc it is will impact things a lot as well. For example, a historical documentary (where it’s easier to script/plan since you are recounting things that have already happened) should require less work than a more cinéma vérité style doc where you follow people around for days/weeks/months hoping to capture enough relevant moments in their lives that you can craft an engaging story out of it in the edit room.

Documentaries tend to have much high shooting ratios than scripted. If I had to guess I’d say the long form docs I’ve worked on (not counting unscripted TV shows) had shooting ratios in the ballpark of 250:1 (and that’s not uncommon at all). It can easily take weeks/months just to watch down all the footage and the logistics of handling and tracking that much footage is a job in and of itself.

A few years ago I was an AE for an very experienced (and fast) editor and it took him about 8 months to go from cards on the wall to a locked, 90min film. The producers/directors were very experienced too but it was a more vérité style doc so there was a lot of footage and a lot elbow grease used to tell the story w/o any narration. Narration is another big thing, if you chose to use it it can certain speed things up, but not every feels it is appropriate (really depends on the project).