Hello Adobe! Major Time Code Problem in 2.0

[Dave Friend]

[Timothy] “I understand SMPTE code”

Yet the rest of your statement indicates you do not.

[Timothy] “Otherwise the drop / non drop differential on an hour seven tape starting at 7:00:00:00 will be 25 seconds when it should be zero,”

No, the offset should not be zero. The DF/NDF offset is NOT a function of when the tape started recording. The offset begins to accumulate at 00:00:00:00, not at some arbitrary time value. 07:00:00:00 NDF = 07;00;25;06 DF no matter when the recording began.

[Timothy Eaton]

Dave,

I don’t know how to communicate this any better. We’re just not talking about program duration — the software needs to take that into account, otherwise there is no way to capture accurately. Take Tim Kolb’s word for it if you won’t take mine:

“Hi Dave…

…it’s correct on a 7 hour timeline…but not a tape that started with hour 7 from the field.”

Tim Kolb, can you explain this to Dave?

Thanks, Tim

[Dave Friend]

I am sorry to say that Mr. Kolb is wrong. For every SMPTE nondrop frame timecode value there is a corresponding and immutable drop frame timecode value – no ifs ands or buts.

[Timothy Eaton]

Good for you Dave. Hold firm.

Tim

[Ken Adolph]

I totally (100%) agree with Dave!! All TC is calculated from 00 and is not reel specific.

Also, if you do the experiment that you referred to above and use “capture” instead of “off-line” you will notice that the logging of clips works. The problem could be because DV is always DF.

Ken Adolph
Media Group
Editor/Post Supervisor
https://www.mg.ca

[Dave Friend]

Tim,

Do you agree that the purpose of timecode is to assign a unique value to every frame of a 24 hour period?

Dave

[Timothy Eaton]

Okay, we’re all in agreement about how time code is calculated for duration — hour zero. I agree. I think you are both terrific and very sharp. But what I’m disputing is how PPro 2.0 handles code when you switch from non-drop to drop on material that has been previously digitized as one or the other. In PPro 1.5 there was no penalty for having your project file set incorrectly, drop or non drop. 1.5 correctly identified the captured material as drop or non-drop and you were on your way. But when you then import that project to 2.0, it converts the files that were captured under drop frame project settings to drop frame code, whether or not it was drop frame footage. This makes your list crazy. And when it does the conversion it calculates from hour zero without compensating for the fact that hour zero on a tape is effectively the beginning of the tape, regardless of the hour setting of the time code. Furthermore PPro 2.0 incorrectly lists manually entered non drop time code as drop frame, and will not capture it correctly, at least in the New Item / Offline File mode.

Thanks for the tip on using Capture for time code entry Ken; that may be helpful. Note, however, that when you enter the code as non drop frame, it appears in the project window under Video In Point and Video Out Point as drop frame. I’ll need to test to see whether this is an issue with capture, offline, or recapture.

I do appreciate you guys taking this up and you’re bang on about the nature of time code. It’s just that when 2.0 makes these conversions it needs to take into account that the beginning of the tape is effectively hour zero.

Tim

[Timothy Eaton]

Hey Ken,

This just in. I tried using capture for manual entry and despite that fact that non drop frame code appears in the project window as drop frame under Video In Point and Video Out Point, it captures perfectly. This could be very helpful for us.

Many thanks,

Tim

[Ken Adolph]

This is where your theory goes wrong!
00;00;00;00 is the zero point where all TC is calculated from and not from the beginning of the tape whether it is hour 7 or hour 23

Ken Adolph
Media Group
Editor/Post Supervisor
https://www.mg.ca

[Timothy Eaton]

Okay, for the purposes of sorting this out, imagine that I set my camera for hour 0 non drop frame code and record an hour of material. Suppose I then capture that material with my project settings (Display Format) set to drop frame in 1.5. 1.5 does not care about this error and treats it as non drop. But if I then import this material into 2.0, it now converts it to drop frame time code. Since the camera was set on hour 0, the offset in Premiere will be about 3.5 seconds at the end of the tape.

Suppose I now set my camera for hour 23 non drop frame code and record an hour of material. I then capture that material with my project settings (Display Format) set to drop frame in 1.5. 1.5 does not care about this error and treats it as non drop. But if I then import this material into 2.0, it now converts it to drop frame time code. Since the camera was set on hour 23, the offset will be almost 83 seconds at the end of the tape.

Two tapes, both of which have one hour of material, both captured exactly the same and imported exactly the same. But the offset is dramatically different, and the only procedural difference is assigning hour 0 or hour 23 in the camera. None of this makes a bit of difference if we’re simply going to finish with the captured material. But as soon as we make the decision to recapture and online (say in HD) it makes a huge difference whether we stayed in 1.5 in the first place since it doesn’t care whether we correctly set the Display Format, and secondly whether Premiere Pro understands that every tape effectively begins at hour zero.

Tim