HDV…sony or panasonic?

[Walter Biscardi]

[rick McNealy] ”
Any advice or potention “land mines” to watch out for? Will shooting HDV make more work in post over shooting DVCPRO HD? Is the Panasonic AJ-HVX200 the only panasonic camera that shoots 1080? Does Sony HDV have any gotchas?”

I would avoid HDV at all costs as it’s a much lower quality format than DVCPro HD.

The Panasonic HDX 400 shoots 1080i.

For what it’s worth, you don’t have to shoot 1080i to deliver 1080i. Good Eats is shot in 720p and we Post the show in 720p, then convert it when it’s done to HDCAM 1080i via a Terranex converter.

Actually my 1200A does a fantastic job of cross-converting 720 to 1080i.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Rick Mcnealy]

Thanks for the tip on the HDX 400…I’m not a camera buff and was unsure which Varicam shot 1080.

We terenex all of our DVCPRO HD shows from 720 to 1080 but for this new customer they seem determined to get 1080 source materials…I am still trying to explain that the difference is insignificant.

Does HDV hold up for color correction? I need ammunition to talk them out of HDV…I’m getting the “I’ve read that HDV looks fine”…I’m trying to explain that looking ok and actually working with what is captured is a big difference. Things like restricted abilities for Color Correction, poor Keys and noisy compositing are things that will help my pitch.

If HDV is inevitable, does anyone have 2cents on working with SONY HDV in a broadcast environment?

Thanks for everyones time in advance.

[Dom Silverio]

I have tried to crunch numbers with the P2 workflow and long form TV series. Unfortunately, it does not look good. My only requirement was that the media always existed in two different locations at any given time – be it SAN and firewire or laptop and P2.
Even with less deck requirements – the cost was just too much.

The downside of HDV is the silly prosumer decks they have out there. No RS422 even.

Economics wise, I think the HDV workflow is more feasible now for long form.

[Walter Biscardi]

[rick McNealy] “Does HDV hold up for color correction? I need ammunition to talk them out of HDV…I’m getting the “I’ve read that HDV looks fine”…I’m trying to explain that looking ok and actually working with what is captured is a big difference. Things like restricted abilities for Color Correction, poor Keys and noisy compositing are things that will help my pitch.”

Well you can just forget about green screen with HDV. If that’s supposed to be part of your workflow, you really need to get a camera and run some tests. The compression in HDV is going to kill any chroma key.

Color Correction will probably take some bad hits too. People who shoot HDV and get decent results are NOT editing in HDV, they’re cutting in uncompressed HD which will take up a ton more storage and require much more robust media arrays than DVCPro HD.

Can’t really see the argument FOR HDV in a broadcast series environment.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Mark Raudonis]

[walter biscardi] “For what it’s worth, you don’t have to shoot 1080i to deliver 1080i.”

I just read a great “white paper” from the US dept of defense comparing the merits of 1080i to 720p. Their conclusion is that due to the artifacts introduced by interlacing, 720p actually produces a higher resolution image than 1080i. (Good to know if you’re taping bombs blowing up) They contend that 1080i should really be called 540i (1080 divided by two fields). Makes sense when you think about it. Conclusion is that 720p is probably the best aquistion format for universal delivery.

I think Walter’s got the right idea. Shoot & post in 720p and convert when done.

mark

[Walter Biscardi]

[Mark Raudonis] “I just read a great “white paper” from the US dept of defense comparing the merits of 1080i to 720p. Their conclusion is that due to the artifacts introduced by interlacing, 720p actually produces a higher resolution image than 1080i.”

Good to know the Dept. of Defense is investigating video formats along with all the new fighters, bombs and ships. I guess this is a good use of our tax dollars? 🙂

All I know is that it’s really hard for me to work in anything that’s interlaced anymore. Progressive is such a beautiful format to work in. I’ll be trying to do all of our production from here on out in progressive.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Will Salley]

I have to disagree with Walter on this. I shoot green-screen with a Sony Z1 on a regular basis and get very good results. There are other problems with the HDV codec that make it unsuitable for certain jobs, but for 95% of the time, the 1080i output from the Z1 will work fine. Sure the DVCPRO-HD codec will perform better, but it should, it cost more – but if it’s HD you want and the business model says HDV, then it’s certainly better than SD.

I have used it side-by-side with HDCAM on shoots for HDNet and others and usually the only difference in the footage is depth-of-field issues.

By the way, I convert all green-screen footage to an un-compressed format to key it – usually basic Animation QT.

Walter – tell Marion and Ginger I said Hi.

System A Info G5/Dual 2 – 10.3.6 – QT v6.5.2 – 4GB ram – Radeon 9800Pro – Lacie FW800 L1 RAID via Lacie PCI card and internal – Decklink Extreme – Wacom 6×8 System B is identical except: 2GB ram – Decklink SP – Radeon 9600 – Pro Tools

[Arthur Vibert]

I recently finished a 1 hour film using footage originated in HDV. In addition to straightforward footage, there was a fair amount of greenscreen material. Poorly shot greenscreen, I might add. I found it was possible to get a decent key BUT it was not easy. Still, after a lot of work I even managed to get a fair amount of detail – even around hair.

But it’s a lot easier with uncompressed SD. There’s so much compression that I found the moment the HDV surface is scraped the soft underbelly is revealed and it’s not pretty.

My advice if you MUST work in HDV is to import it in an uncompressed format and never return to HDV again. Then the damage is minimized. HDV can be quite beautiful. And it projects reallly well. It’s just very fragile.

Arthur VIbert

[Walter Biscardi]

[Arthur Vibert] “My advice if you MUST work in HDV is to import it in an uncompressed format and never return to HDV again. Then the damage is minimized. HDV can be quite beautiful. And it projects reallly well. It’s just very fragile.”

See, therein lies the rub. Shoot in a very highly compressed format, but then edit in 1080i Uncompressed HD. Cheaper to shoot, more expensive to edit. So again, I don’t really see where HDV would be a better option than FCP.

You can edit DVCPro HD and finish in DVCPro HD. All the examples of great HDV work I’ve heard of, including your post, are to shoot HDV, finish in Uncompressed HD.

With DVCPro HD, you’re good to edit with any G5 Workstation and a FW 800 drive.

Walter Biscardi, Jr.
https://www.biscardicreative.com

Director, “The Rough Cut”
https://www.theroughcutmovie.com

Now Posting “Good Eats” in HD for the Food Network

“I reject your reality and substitute my own!” – Adam Savage, Mythbusters

[Gary Adcock]

[walter biscardi] “All I know is that it’s really hard for me to work in anything that’s interlaced anymore. Progressive is such a beautiful format to work in. I’ll be trying to do all of our production from here on out in progressive.”

True true, I agree walter.

I had an extended “discussion” with someone at macworld last week that could not get that it is easy to acquire in one format and deliver in another- I kept saying “film” and he kept say “that’s different”

but it’s not.

Gary Adcock
Studio37
HD and Film Consultation
Chicago, IL USA