-
FSI – trustworthy or not? Maybe plasma better?
-
Folks, take a deep breath. FSI always has been and will be open to feedback, criticism, and an unyielding drive to further refine and improve upon our products. This is no exception.
I think perhaps some of you imagine a conflict and animosity between Light Illusion and FSI that simply does not exist. I have personally begun a very friendly and informative dialogue with Steve Shaw and we’ve even purchased a Light Space license to learn more and have a better common ground for understanding and future discussion with Light Illusion and customers using their software. However, it would be extremely premature for me to start discussing specifics because we are not sure yet where this is taking us. The one thing I learned long ago from a variety of software and hardware developers even well before I helped start FSI is not to utter the phrase “well this should be easy.” Truth is if it was easy everyone would do it and the simplest looking things can often be the most difficult to tackle. Best example of this was our recent addition of 12 bit signal support, it was previously only 10 bit, via a simple and free firmware upgrade. This seemingly simple update actually required a 9 month ground up rewrite of our firmware, but we saw a growing customer demand for it and wanted to address that demand.
What I think FSI has managed to do over the years is provide an affordable range of monitors (remember, they start at $2K with the most expensive currently being $5K) that for the vast majority of our clients get the job done at a fair price day in and day out. We’ve never aimed to be the company that makes the $30K pushing-the-limits-of-what-is-possible monitors and with that come limits as to what the displays can do. That being said there is ALWAYS room for improvement and we’ve never suggested otherwise. Our first wide gamut monitors had internal LUTs that were 128 times smaller than what we use now. We then stepped it up with the LM-2460W with a much larger internal LUT. Then we stepped it up with the LM-2461W by investing in truly high-grade probes ($15,000 to $35,000 a piece) that by all indications available to us provided much more precise results. And you know what? At every step of the way we offered inexpensive or free upgrade paths so you could get the latest and greatest technology on these older units.
So again, let me stress that we are always keen on improving what we can where we can and again without discussing specifics, which I just won’t do here, this is no exception. That being said we can’t ignore the fact that day after day thousands of FSI customers around the world feel they have a tool that already gets the job done. Many of these customers have evaluated our solutions closely compared to other competitively priced options and come to the conclusion that for the money we offered the best tool for the job at hand.
Lastly, please be kind to our employees. If you are frustrated at a lack of public posts here please blame me directly, not them. I have asked that they refrain from further commenting here because I think we have said our peace and I really don’t want us to come off as sounding like a company that refuses to believe there is any room for improvement in our products or calibration. In my mind there is always room for improvement and refinement in these respects and we will, as we always have, continue to pursue these avenues of improvement.
Bram Desmet
FSI (Flanders Scientific, Inc.)
http://www.FlandersScientific.com -
The Dreamcolor is a decent 10-bit panel but let’s be honest it is a PITA to use as a video monitor and was not really ever intended for that purpose. Also the HP is/was not exactly inexpensive at $2k (or so) without any video I/O so once you add a Gefen or Aja interface it adds up.
A $5k LCD monitor with proper high bit SDI video I/O and scopes and other video centric features etc. is a long way ahead of feeding a panel with an external box IMO. Many people seem to be happy with FSI and their products and the apparent willingness of FSI to take suggestions as to how to improve their product and their calibration seems like a good sign. Also they are talking to the LI guys and that looks like a great active response from this particular manufacturer.
I am using a Panny Plasma and I like it although I see the obvious problems with it as a Grade-1 replacement. The Sony PVM-2541 is a serious contender in this price category and it’s users seem to absolutely love it. So there are certainly choices in this price range.
-Rob-
Robert Houllahan
Director / Colorist
Cinelab Inc.
http://www.cinelab.comMAHC-PRO 6-Core 3X GTX285 20Tb SAS Wave Panel Panny 11UK SDI Plasma. Light-Space CMS + Hubble
-
Dear sir, you have my respect by your response. I will keep a close watch on your progress, and likely become a near future customer when the issue is resolved and/or verified as some form of anomaly with an explanation we did not expect.
I never meant to imply any animosity toward you, not between you and Steve Shaw.
All I want is a perfectly reliable monitor, and if I can get that monitor from a small business with a great attitude, then you will have my support and purchase order for sure, as well, I woudl imagine, as the support of many people reading this. Like I said, a verifiably accurate monitor, that I don;t have to fuss with calibrating myself, is in my opinion worth substantially more than $5000.
I share information not to hurt anyone. I share information because I think knowledge is empowerment for all of us.
As I have said many times, it is my firm belief, from having met you, that you have nothing but good intentions, and never meant to deliberately deceive anyone, and you last post shows this well.
-
[Robert Houllahan] “The Sony PVM-2541 is a serious contender in this price category and it’s users seem to absolutely love it. So there are certainly choices in this price range.
“When Flanders resolves their issues, and Steve and/or other proven technical experts tell us “all is well now” based on a process of thorough testing, it will be in my opinion a better monitor than the Sony Oled. The Sony suffers from real off-axis issues, much more than the Flanders which is excellent in this regard, as well as strange motion characteristics (weird way of refreshing the frame which does not resemble how your audience will look at things and is annoying in my opinion.
As far as I know The Sony is also NOT properly pre-calibrated. When the Flanders will fix/resolve any potential calibration errors in the Flanders, it will save you a lot of time and money over buying something you have to calibrate yourself.
What I’ve learned is it’s not important what other people love. For our purposes what is important is proven, thoroughly measured technical accuracy in a monitor that objectively shows us our images truthfully, warts and all, without any artifacts. You’d be surprised how few people “love” something like that, even though really they should positively adore it.
-
Hi Robert, in response to a few things here:
“In most cases, they trust them because they believe that they have been “super calibrated” at the factory and because the company gives great service and is run by quite obviously great guys. They do not check this “super calibration” in a technically rigorous manner, if at all – because part of what they are paying for is the impression that they do not have to.”
Of course many of FSI’s customers test the calibration a technically rigorous manner. I have the 2461w shot, adjusted and reported alongside every other display we color with, projector or plasma or LCD. How else would one know when it’s time to sent it to FSI for recalibration? And I have it shot when we get it back from Flanders, just to ensure they didn’t screw it up. I’m not shy about telling a manufacturer they screwed up. I sent 6 consecutive Dreamcolors back to HP.
“It might appear to be true if you test just one image – an image that does not contain the problems we discuss here – and compare it to a more high-end offering. That image, free of the “problem areas” of a Flanders monitor, will look great “compare to a Barco” etc. and thus the reports. But when you compare it using the “wrong” image…”
I’m on year two of comparing them daily with extremely varied material. I haven’t found an image that suddenly breaks the 2461w.
“The first stage of grief is always denial. I think this is why so many here do not want to accept simple technical observations, even if they happen to match their perceptual ones.”
I think if you want to make technical observations, just about everybody here would be interested. Getting several high-quality spectroradiometers and probes and a number of displays from different manufacturers, like the Dolby and the 2461w and the usual Plasmas, the Sony OLED etc. then shooting them all and posting the results and your methodology would be extremely welcome (and eliminate potential error from comparing different panels and different probes, perhaps sorting out why our results shooting the 2461w are nowhere near your friend’s in London).
My off-the-cuff prediction for that kind of a shootout? That the FSI doesn’t hold as rock solid as the (emmy-winning) Dolby or Digital Cinema projectors, but that it beats out a whole class of under (and maybe over) $10,000 monitors. But I would love to know what options can compete – like Steve Shaw said, there’s not a lot else to consider at the $5,000 price range, and the current state of things, asking for more precision puts you in the very high-end. I’m very happy with the two 2461s in our place, and excited that Bram and FSI are exploring ways to make it better. Thanks!
KC
-
Hey Robert!
I’ve seen Flanders fall down when it comes to saturated red primaries while watching our familiar material at a friend’s studio. You just eyeball, say, lipstick (we shoot a lot of fashion, and we know what particular lipsticks should look like). Those perceptual observations matched my London friend’s findings. If you do that green gradient test, you’ll see it fall down. I do not have as keen an eye for foliage (there are not many trees where I live, which resembles a cross between Manhattan and a French small city, and I have almost never shot in nature). However, likely greens would also visibly show an issue.
I never meant to claim that Flanders were crap in general, only that they needed to fix real issues we found. I’m sure once they fix those issues their monitors will be excellent and I will be eager to buy them and recommend them to others. I’m sure they were not aware of those issues until now, otherwise they would have already fixed them.
I made an open call to all users here to measure their own or friend’s Flanders using Lightspace, Truelight or Cinespace (Calman cannot show you many problems) and post their findings (reports) here. I doubt their results will be any different, but I am 100% open to the possibility. You are welcome to do so yourself if you have access to any of these software that is able to analyze and display those aspects of probe data.
-
Can you name another company that will sell you an individually calibrated monitor at a very reasonable price, provide free firmware updates and re-calibrate the monitor any time, for free?
Are there any other options on the market that are as accurate in the same price range?
I’d love to know one if there is one.
If you’re working in Rec-709 land… I really don’t see a better deal out there. I have never had any issues or complaints.
Sure I’d love to have a the Dolby or the sony OLED with a Davio box, but I’d also like to grade every film in a 60 seat 4k theater.
Joseph Mastantuono
http://www.goodpost.net
Color Grading & Post Production Consulting -
Robert,
Perhaps I missed it. What monitor are you currently grading with? Dreamcolor?
Omar Godinez
Colour Cafe, LLC
Dallas, TXResolve 9.0.3 for Mac
-
Hi Gomar!
We have 3 screens here.
Dreamcolor
Panny Plasma
Front-Projection DLPEach reveals something unique about how out footage will be perceived under different circumstances.
Of course the Panny has floating whites, so its gamma is never to be trusted, but it can be fine in terms of color after a Lightspace 3D lut is fed to it. It’s also great for seeing focus and noise issues.
The DLP is just for previewing what material will look like projected in a cinema – its rarely on during sessions – just at the end to preview. Clients love it.
I recommend using Lightspace for calibration. All three monitors have issues visible to the eye that Calman missed in it’s way of measuring and presenting probe data, but that Lightspace saw and showed me. Trusted friends tell me that Cinepsace and Truelight are also good choices, although they too use Lightspace.
If there’s one thing I’ve learned it’s that calibration as as important as monitor choice.
-
Hear, hear. This is especially problematic when the client is not in the suite, and views the edit on his own computer. When I deliver a .wmv file with a highly-saturated blue background, and the client says it looks “muddy” on his never-calibrated laptop, I’m at a loss.
Is there a simple way for clients to calibrate their own monitors?
Bob C
Reply to this Discussion! Login or Sign Up