Freelance Subcontract Protocol

[Aharon Rabinowitz]

You may want to post in the business forum but here are my thoughts:

f you worked for them and didn’t agree up front that all work is yours (and you’ll never get work if you do), and you cashed your check, it’s theirs not yours. Generally when you work for a company and deliver files, you are being paid not just for the final product but anything that went into it.

My personal feeling is that there’s nothing wrong with that. Does you current contractor pay a percentage to the original construction company that built your house, just because they’re building off their original work? Tons of my stuff has been reused for for porjects I wasn’t called in on. It’s the nature of the business. Otherwise a network would only be able to hire the same freelance people over and over, and what if one of them weren’t avaiable or decided to say I want $10,000 and hour or you can’t use my stuff? You do a job, and deliver files, and move on.

Sorry. I know it sucks, but that’s how it goes.

—————————————-
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
—————————————-
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com

[Zander]

discalimer, all this is speculation based on experience, advice, legal classes, and enough law and order to choke a horse (: but seriusly, take what ever advice given to you here with a grain of salt, the best way is to contact a lawyer and discuss with them, unfortunatly thats expensive.

this all depends on contracts and agrements. if, withing the contracts you used (if there was one) to create the products u have been making says full use of any material or resources devoted to the project. it would be the same thing if you filed a report, using a folder you bought from the store, and later saw the company using the same folder to hold their own folder.

but on the other hand, if there was no contract or the contract doesn’t specify the use of “materials” from the project u can at least get them to stop all use of these materials, and at most get money from their use (a percentage of the profits or a percentage of your nomral fee)

like i said it’s all about your contract of agreements, if there is no legal documentation it will get alot harder to do anything as far as getting money or not, it becomes a i said u said thing.

hope this helps

[Steve Roberts]

Hmm …

1. It all depends on your contract. If your contract stipluated that the deliverables were video clips and no AEPs, you might be able to raise a stink, but you’d PO the design firm and look silly, because you did give them the AEPs by leaving them on the design firm’s machine.

2. No contract? If your work is original enough, you might be able to argue that you’re the owner of the work and they are using it without permission. But I can’t see that happening in a lot of corporate jobs. And you’d PO the design firm.

3. If I gave someone an AEP file, I’d expect them to use it in situations where I was not involved. Otherwise, why did I give it to them? Now in your case, if you didn’t want them to have access to the AEP files, you should have worked from AEPs on a CD-ROM or flash drive, and taken them with you at the end of each day. Leaving them on the client’s G5 effectively gave them permission, in my non-legal opinion. You could try to fight it, but see #1 above.

4. I’d price my services based on the expectation that the stuff will be used again, if you’ve given them access to the files. Really, if you were adequately compensated, you wouldn’t care what they did with the files, right? 🙂

5. I might get roasted for this, but in general, I believe that it’s inappropriate for a subcontractor to dictate usage terms (or claim ownership) on work performed for a contractor (design firm or producer). Of course, it all depends on the originality of the subcontractor’s work, his/her reputation and of course, the contract.

6. Legally, I haven’t a clue what the latest American (my assumption) copyright laws involve.

7. For some people, making your AEPs unnecessarily complex is an option, but it’s a sneaky one. I haven’t done that yet.

8. As I stated before, I’d just assume that things are going to be used again, and price accordingly. Maybe offer a discount if you deliver things that cannot be used again (if it’s possible to make such a stipulation)?

9. Rendering on their machine effectively weakens your position as an independent contractor slightly. You should get your own Quad if you want more respect and control. Easy for me to say.

To summarize:
– stipulate all deliverables in your deal memo, contract or estimate and get it signed.
– don’t leave the AEP files on their machine or give them access if they are not deliverables.
– if they ask for the AEP files, price accordingly. Maybe offer the AEP files in your estimate, and offer a discount if they don’t want them.

Just my opinion … 🙂

[Zander]

ok…aharons example is waaay better then mine..

[Aharon Rabinowitz]

Well spoken Steve. Virtually anything you could do to make it harder for them to use your stuff without upfront telling them they can’t will just piss people off – and that means less work. Like you said you go into the studio and see the work their doing, so they must still be hiring you for other gigs, right?

If you work on their machines, and leave the files there, you are basically telling them it’s OK to use your stuff. Even if it’s morally shaky for them to use it (which I really don’t think it is), they still have a lot of legal ground to stand on. The client is theirs, and the client didn’t pay you for the work they paid the studio which hired you to design for them.

But I’m going to tell you this – if you deliver stuff and cash a check, then they can easily argue that the understanding is that they paid you for what you gave them and you accepted the terms when you accepted the money.

Always… ALWAYS get a contract and read the fine print. And chop it up and re-write it if you are unhappy with it. i do that all the time – make small changes tell them. Look they are asking you to agree to their terms, no reason, if you’re really bringing something to the table, that you can’t do that to.

—————————————-
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
—————————————-
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com

[Roland R. kahlenberg]

This is an issue that has bothered for a very long time. The SYMPTOM of this problem is that AE guys and those alike do not understand what it takes to earn a living in this business.

The CAUSE is that it doesn’t cost a lot of money and at times, it doesn’t take a lot of talent, just a lot of time, to create something useable with a tool like AE.

Given this easy entry into the industry, folks have the impression that they can shore up work after work with relatively ease. Soon after, work eases up for everyone. This happens to all of us, even the best amongst us.

I too have had my work pinched over and over again by clients. The first couple of times made me feel good – a sense of arrival, so to speak. Then you see that it happens more frequesntly and you also notice that these same clients call you up for work less frequently.

Then you smarten up and realize that you are no longer going to leave your AEPs with any client. You begin to think of ways to work such that a ‘disaster’ such as this.

Essentially, you don’t want to not get paid for your work. I’ve been there and it seems that those that have responded to this thread have been there.

We’ve touched on a symptom and we touched on a very likely cause. So what’s the solution?

Well, look outisde of the box. Look at an old box. Hmmm, that old ballsy marchall amp is where you should begin.

Way before AE guys and their like came into the production fore, we had our audio cousins doing the rounds. They’ve been there and they’ve been had too. I know a lot of audio people and NOT one of them has ever given their project files and all of their source elements to a client.

If they did, they would be out of business faster than Peter made King Kong.

We’re in this for the long haul. It’s career. Treat your career with respect and you’ll have a decent chance to last as long as your heart is in it.

My gist is that we should do what the audio folks do. WHen was the last time that you went into an audio studio and saw nothing tha fancied you? These guys have been around for as long as there was sound in movies. Okay, alright, give or take a few moons.

Back to the problem: AE guys and their like have an easy entry into the industry. As such, they lack the “‘growing up skills” that audio guys have. AE guys and their like should think of the long-term consequences of providing AEP to their clients.

Steve provided valid points and Aharon provded a number of probable analogies. I’d like to forward just one.

Suppose you went to a restaurant and enjoyed a great meal. You so much want that recipe so that you can enjoy that same meal again, in the comfort of your home, with you as the chef. So pray tell? What are the chances of you getting that recipe from the chef?

Imaginable? Yes! Probable? No!

There are many industries with so many tried and tested practices. We really cannot use an example from another industry to justify most of the things that we do for a living.

We should model our business practices based on similar professions within the same industry, whenever that is possible.

I do not propose that I have the solution.

So, please call your local audio guy that does original music and not those that do studio recordings. Ask them if they commit, as a common practice, their sound elements and their project files to their clients. I suggest that everyone interested in topic do likewise.

So, once we have sufficient answers to this question. We should all come to our own conclusions. And once we do, please enlighten everyone that you know who may be, is or seems to be, an AE kinda of guy.

This, I expect, will be the only one solution with long-term viability.

[Parsonsdesign]

Aharon,
I very much appreciate your feedback (and everyone else who has responded) on this issue and many of your points are valid. However, I don’t believe the analogy to building an addition onto a home is applicable. It would be if once you had your home built, you could replicate it again and again and selling it on the housing market without ever having to learn any of the techniques (carpentry, masonry, wiring, plumbing, etc.) that were required to build it in the first place.

Thank you,
Chris Parsons

[Aharon Rabinowitz]

[RoRK] “This is an issue that has bothered for a very long time. The SYMPTOM of this problem is that AE guys and those alike do not understand what it takes to earn a living in this business.”

I’m not sure if I should be offended by this – I’m going to assume you don’t actually have experience trying to get work in animation when you

[Aharon Rabinowitz]

I just want to say RoRK, that while my statements were fairly strong, I do recognize that a lot fo what you said is true, and that it would be great if we could do it in a way that led to more work and better opportunities.

What i did not agree with is your attitude about how easy you think it is for After Effects people to get work, and how we need to grow up. I don’t know where that’s coming from.

If I offended, I apologize, but I think of you take a look at your statements, you will see that some of them are pretty inflamatory and insulting.

—————————————-
Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
—————————————-
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com

[Roland R. kahlenberg]

[Aharon Rabinowitz] “What i did not agree with is your attitude about how easy you think it is for After Effects people to get work, and how we need to grow up. I don’t know where that’s coming from.”

I believe that you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Or perhaps, I wasn’t sufficiently clear in my writing.

First off, I am an AE guy. Look up at the top of this page and you’ll see my mugshot.

One of the points I brought up was that it is easy to get AE jobs. Ease of entry is a given. Like I said, we’ve all been there – including the low tides and facing cheaper competitors who may still be schooling.

My believe in recent years has been to follow te business models of the audio guys when it comes to providing AEPs and any elements. In short, do not provide your AEPs to your clients unless you are paid extra for it.

RoRK
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