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Freelance Subcontract Protocol
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I don’t think any analogy is really applicable, frankly. And Analogies are nice for comparrison, but they don’t solve the problem.
If there’s not contract, and you’re working from home, don’t turn in the After Effects files and see how that goes. If you are on their machines, and you erase the files – you could get sued for desctruction of property. They could always claim thay would have called you in again.
But let me state this as I did in another post:
You have to also keep something in mind – if it was your business, and you had hired someone to work on a project for you, if you had any brains at all, you would make sure that they had to turn in their AE projects as a part of the deal. You can’t run a business on the availability of freelancers because if that person has another job, is on vacation, or just decides they just don’t want to work for you anymore, then you’d be totally screwed if your client needed something changed. and that ALWYAS happens.
As far as their using it for other projects – while I understand that you feel cheeted, once you’ve already given them your work, you have to accept that they can use it any way they want – IF YOU DON’T HAVE A CONTRACT.
On the other hand, I’ve worked with animators who took the same work they did at one place, and modified it for other projects they worked on elsewhere so that, while they could do it again over a few hours, they could turn in work faster this way. It’s on the same moral ground as your situation – I’m not sure I have a problem with it, so long as they don’t undermine the original project/client or are not violating a contract that says they can’t (though most do say this).
I may take heat for saying this, but how many people here haven’t used even one preset or trick they created on one job for another job? Many contracts I’ve seen stipulate that any idea you come up woth on a job, even if you don’t use it, or if it has nothing to do with the gig you’re on, belongs to them. At Sesame Street they told us that the very interactions we had with eachother was due to our working for the company, so even an Idea discussed over dinner at my apartment was thier idea – of course we all just didn’t sign the contract, and they never said anything about it, after that.
But my point is that, wrong or right taking anything (including knowledge) you created on one gig, and using it elsewhere can be considered no different then taking your work and using it elsewhere. You give it in, and unless it’s in a contract, you should expect that they will take what you have done and build off it. Frankly, if the contract stipulates that you have to give a pint of blood the redcross every month to get paid, you have to do it…
Again, this is a 2-way street. For now, without a contract, you’re also free to take anything you’ve done for them and use it elsewhere, so long as you don’t undermine their client (and possibly even if you do). You may be able to use this as leverage the next time you negotiate with them.
Just a thought.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
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Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com -
[Aharon Rabinowitz] “I have had months of no work – some very scary times, and for you to imply that it’s been easy is just ridiculous.”
Just to clarify, one more time, ease of entry into the AE market is easy. Surviving it is another thing.
You, yourself have mentioned having to face competition from cheaper, student alternatives. You’ve also mentioned facing a scarcity of work as a result. What you didn’t specify was that the scarcity of work could also be related to you giving away AEPs to your clients.
Kathlyn and Ron know that I’ve faced some slow times myself. So, no. I never meant to imply that earning a living as an AE artist is easy. What I did say was that it is easy to enter into this entry with relatively few AE skills and with only a little invesment. These, coupled with the giving away of AEPs are the major obstacles to making a good and decent living in this industry as an AE guy.
The giving away of AEPs is a major catastrophe for the individual and for the entire AE industry. My suggestion is to follow the model as practiced by audio guys. They have been around longer and they seem to be doing ok.
Again, I suggest that all those interested in this thread, everyone should rightly be, to go do some ‘research’ and ask your audio guys, if, as a matter of practice, whether they provide project files and other music elements to their clients other than the finished piece of music.
Further, it is common practice that the audio guys get paid royalties for their work. And should their music be used for a period longer than that which was initially agreed upon, then extra charges are in order.
I strongly believe that AE artists should follow this business model to ensure their happiness and longevity in the industry.
Cheers
RoRKbroadcastGEMs
customizable animated backdrops with Adobe After Effects project files -
Roland – I don’t think you’re not an AE guy – I just wasn’t sure you started as one. If you’re already in the industry doing something else, you could use connections that you have to move into it – which may or may not have been your way of doing it. And I see that from your history (clicked on your mugshot) that you were doing other industry stuff before that – like me. I can just tell you that even so, it was still very diffiuclt for me.
[RoRK] “My belief in recent years has been to follow he business models of the audio guys when it comes to providing AEPs and any elements. In short, do not provide your AEPs to your clients unless you are paid extra for it.”
And I think that’s an excellent way to go – if you work from home on your own, or if it’s your company. But if you are hired in-house, you are in very dangerous waters if you don’t turn in your AE projects, and instead erase them.
Again – I think you are absolutely, 100% right about what’s wrong with the industry and the people in it -except about how easy it is for AE people. But I also recognize that the only way to make it better is to get a contract. All of our moral debates about it is worth nothing, because, ultimately, a contract is a contract, and if you agree to it, then your bound by it. And you should never work in the brodcast industry (and most others) without a contract.
Roland, I also want to point out that you’re selling your product Brodacast Gems – which are basically AE Projects. From my point of view, I think it’s great thay you’ve found a way to bring in more well deserved income from your very (VERY) hard work. And of course the understanding/agreement is that the product be used with no further income to you – right? Just like the chef who writes the book.
And that’s probably the way that most companies view hiring an animator. It’s not wrong or right – It’s all in the contract. Recently a friend of mine who is a VO asked me if I thought her rate was fair. but I told her that I personally felt it was high, but if you can get it, it’s as fair as anything else.
By the way, I just want to say I completely respect your work and enjoy your tutorials, and I have learned a lot from you here in the forum. Please don’t think I have any bad feelings towards you. I just felt that some of your comments were not fully true, at least here in NY where it’s saturated with people trying to get the same jobs.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
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Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com -
[RoRK] “You, yourself have mentioned having to face competition from cheaper, student alternatives. You’ve also mentioned facing a scarcity of work as a result. What you didn’t specify was that the scarcity of work could also be related to you giving away AEPs to your clients.”
Well, fortuantely, I tend to work long term with my clients becasue they like me and I do good work. Any client that I have ever turned in the AE Projects to (and this does not include working in house, which is a whole other story) has usually rehired me for other jobs. I think the reason they like to work with me is A) They can call me for help any time if it’s just a few minute conversation, and B) I don’t leave them in hole by turning in only the final product, and then not being available to help them when I’m too busy.
So, with much respect, I say that for the most part, No – it’s most definately cheap labor that has gotten in the way of my getting work in the most recent times – not my giving up AE projects. But I will also say that I can think of a company or 2 I worked for and delvered the projects to that were just pure evil, and that once thy had my work, tossed me away like garbage. But looking back, working for those people is a losing battle.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
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Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com -
I should say that since I am the company now, I rarely am in a place to give up my AE projects – since most of my clients (Except a few) wouldn’t know what to do with them anyway. So in that way, I can’t really judge.
You may be absolutely right. But I think that my earlier point (which you might have missed) is that a company can’t rely on a freelancer availability to go forward on a project. they need the AE source files, if the animator becomes unavailable for work – otherwise they’re screwed.
Sorry. I guess I have a lot to say on this. Even if most of it’s not usefull.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
—————————————-
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com -
Okay, I’ll agree this should be in the other forum, but since it’s here, I’ll chime in my .02. I’m just now trying to break into the AE market, having been a print designer for about 13 years, and pretty well known for about the last 7 (here in town, we’re not talking big time here). For most of my career, I’ve done my work on a handshake, partially because by the time someone calls me, it’s do or die, and I spend all night or close to it meeting their deadline. I’ve done 3 video projects here in town, and have never been paid (an obvious reason to have a ready contract, instead of the handshake farmboy attitude that used to work for me).
Anyway, early on, I would always give the client my “raw” files with fonts and links, whether it was Quark, PageMaker, or whatever. A number of those folks called me back to do the changes, others took them to their family members who’d pirated a copy, or whatever. Now, even with my handshake customers, unless they really object, I give them a final PDF file (I work in the print business, so I know what’s really needed, not just a “click on the PDF button”), and I protect the PDF file from changes/copying etc. There are ways around that, because I own a utility, but the average joe isn’t going to be able to do that.
Obviously, if I give them raw files, they will do whatever they want with them. If I give them a finished product, then that’s what they have. I think the same way about AE files, and the source material that goes into it. I do a LOT of illustrator work, and unless they specify that it’s part of the deal, I don’t intend to hand that out – there are too few people that understand the amount of time that Illustrator work can take, much less the “easy” AE work (which I have spent the last 4 years training at night and weekends myself, so there is a massive investment).
My gut response, and I’m formulating my own contract based on one I found a link to on this site, is that my deliverable will generally be a final product, not raw files. In addition, the contract is the key here, to enforce payment if necessary, and also to avoid misunderstanding. My business (and it’s always been a “side” business, I don’t live on it) has always been based on establishing a working relationship with a client, and having that person call me back. I’ve had many stray because someone will offer to do the same work for half the price, and after a poor job or two, I see most of them again; the others need me more than they realize, and so they will have to have that void filled in some more professional way.
So, the upshot? If you are happy doing work with these folks, you may want to sit down and have a discussion (I’d say just let the old stuff go, it’s already theirs now), but let them know that you would like to deliver a final product to them, and see what you can work out. I got a few old machines, and do multiple-machine renders… 3 G3s don’t equal a G5, but it might surprise you what you can crank out.
Good luck, and don’t let the resentment cloud your judgement or your future, it never pays off in the end.
Rhett
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I think it’s fairly sound advice.
But again, the point of whether or not you are working at their location is being ignored. If they hire you to come in and work on their machines, this doesn’t hold water – becasue you are then erasing files from their system which could be considered criminal – unless your contract says that they can’t keep those files.
If you work from home or your own office, as you do, parsonsdesign, there’s much more flexibility to conrol your destiny. You just have to take control of it. But once you hand that stuff off, you are accepting that they will use it anyway they see fit.
So like Rhett said, forget about the past, and now do one of the following:
A)don’t work for anyone that forces you to deliver the files, or
B) negotiate a way in which you don’t have to deliver the files. or
C) Negotiate a way that you get paid extra for project delivery.
Did I miss any realistic options?
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
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Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com -
I have read this thread with great interest. my dad used to say that one man with a shovel is never worth more than another man with a shovel, about $2.00 a day, but the guy that designed the ditch is worth what ever he can convince someone he is worth and his back doesn’t get sore and his hands don’t get dirty. Some day I hope that people think of me as a designer so I can get what I think I’m worth. Until then I take what I can get and try not to give away my time so much that the folks I work for don’t place any value on my time. Is my stuf artistic, sometimes. Have I ever gotten paid well for the time invested – only once that I can think of. Is this fun and worth the time I’m spending – I hope so, but it won’t happen until I’m good enough with the tools and fast enough with the ideas, and inovative enough with ideas that tell a good story that people think of me as the guy they need to go to instead of just another guy with a shovel.
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ok, well after reading through the laborynth of new posts since last night with, as sam said, great intent i have these things to say:
As a student, im not yet trying to undercut anyone or even brake into the main industry (anything i come in and do will be through people i already know, proabbly for cheap or free just so i have chance to work, and meet the other edditors, and animators.) but what i do do, is work at my school for other students. infact (ironicly enough in a buisness class) im drawing up a buisness plan to start my own little company to work entirly out of home and school to work for other kids at my school who may or maynot be very computer inclined with edditing and aftereffects
im already getting known, and people are starting to call me for favors (unpaid for now) but after reading this thread, i now know i have to write up a contract, one that states, all work in after effects will be delivered as a final composition and not as a porject file, (final cut will be harder as it’s probably something they’ll want im not sure yet)
what im hoping is that i get a leg up in the industry as these people i work for graduate, and move on into teh indusrty, it’ll be like spreading my own work in the industry. i hope.
god..reality is harsh…thank god i have 2 years of school left
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I feel like th most important point is being missed here, and that is: without a contract things can only go from OK to bad. No one ever says, hey there’s no contract, so let me give you more money.
Dave your advice is good for one job only and then after that, the animator will never get hired again by those people. If the terms are “Completed After Effects work” – then it’s pretty well clear (at least to me) that they mean the completed AE file. Otherwise it’s just a quicktime movie that could have been done in any program. Why would they care what program the work got done in? And since you have to hand in work before you get paid, don’t expect to get a check too quickly if you don’t come through.
Dave, I see from your profile that you have a position of responsibility. If you hired someone and they used semantics to get more money from you, how fast would you hire them again?
Instead of playing games, get the specifics on everything, and put it in writing. Unless people are beating down your door with jobs, playing games will mean less work for you. You’ll get a reputation for being unreliable and untrustworthy. In NY reputation gets around – I can’t speak for elsewhere.
And I can say this – I freelenced for several years at Viacom – a very reputable company who treated us animators very well – good pay, no overworking us. The contracts said that what we create for them is theirs, and It never entered our minds that when we freelanced there, that the work belonged to us – it’s their product and their network, and we were hired to create materials for them. Not once did I feel taken advantage of because everything was on the table before we even started. And I saw them using my stuff all the time, as things changed and I wasn’t available to update it. No bad feelings about it.
So ask yourself if it’s worth playing games for both your happiness and peace of mind? I don’t think so.
Contracts, baby! Good fences make good neighbors.
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Aharon Rabinowitz
aharon(AT)yahoo(DOT)com
http://www.allbetsareoff.com
—————————————-
Creative Cow Master Series DVD
particleIllusion Fusion Volume 1
available @ http://www.pIllusionFusion.com
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