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Freelance Editing + non competition agreement
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Mads,
It is one thing to disagree.
However, to constantly call others ethics into question in order to win an argument is inappropriate unless you can demonstrate an expertise in business ethics such as a law degree, or an MBA.For the record, I didn’t misquote you. I pasted your quote verbatim, in context and in its entirety. I did render an opinion on your quoted statement. On that opinion you are free to disagree.
Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.comI have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed… -
This is a really interesting thread!
My own thoughts as the owner of a production company, and as one who used to be a freelancer…I don’t own freelancers. If I wanted to, I’d hire them. I don’t use them that often, but when I do, I don’t expect them to steal my clients.
That being said, if one of my freelancers did something that my production company doesn’t offer – for instance, audio, I wouldn’t feel bad if they got work from one of my clients. I have a guy who usually handles audio for me – he’s a genius. I’m not set up as a recording studio, but if one of my clients needed audio work done, and they called him I wouldn’t care in the least. That’s not something I do. If I hired him as an editor, and they started calling him to edit that would be different.
When I freelanced, I did a lot of freelance work for one producer. Other producers saw my work and wanted to hire me too. The producer I was working for didn’t want to hire me full-time, and while these other producers were his competition, they wanted me to work on projects for people that my usual producer didn’t have as clients, plus I was doing something he couldn’t do – edit! So I felt no guilt. I was doing good work, and that work was leading to other work. That’s where I see you, Lisa, in this whole situation. You’ve done nothing wrong.
One other thing just to complicate the issue here – I used to work for a production company, and one of our editors quit to go on his own. As far as we know, he didn’t notify any of the companies clients who liked to use him that he was quitting. When he left, a number of clients left us and starting using him. My old boss was furious and called him in one day to talk about it. The former editor said that these people looked at him like a doctor or hair dresser or auto mechanic…they wanted the guy they trust. And now that he’s someplace else, they’ll go where he is. That argument has always stuck with me. It’s a tough spot, and I see both sides…but I tend to side (even as production company owner now) with the former editor. You spend long hours with an editor sometimes – you grow to like his style, his work habits, and even him (or her!) personally. I wouldn’t go to the same barber shop if the guy who I usually have cut my hair left – I’d want to go where he is.
Lisa, if you had taken away a producing job from this person/friend, I’d say you were in the wrong. But if she can’t edit and you can, then in my mind, you’ve stolen nothing. You’ve earned another job from a new client.
—Eric
Owner | 100 ACRE FILMS
https://www.100acrefilms.com -
Mads –
I have a small production and post company in NY. If, while producing a spot for a client, I hire a DP who is later hired directly by that client for another project I wouldn’t have any problem with it providing the DP was not actively soliciting that work during my shoot.I would have no problem hiring that DP again. I have done so and will do so in the future.
I have also had guys badmouthing me to the client during a production in hopes of stealing them away, and of course I’d never work with them again. In general a good client wouldn’t hire them, so pretty much if the client is available for such opportuning, they’re not a long term client of yours anyhow.
Herb Sevush
Zebra Productions -
This thread seems like a discussion of “ownership” no one “owns” their clients, no one “owns” a free-lancer (contract laborer) Once the contract is up, you do what you want! If the “producer” has a problem with that, they can put you on salary, then they can tell you what to do, till that day, they are being very unreasonable and unprofessional. No one has the right to tell you whom to work for or not, unless they are your employer and you are being well compensated. Poaching clients is a very vague term, if they are the “producers clients” (ownership) then why are they calling you? Because the client does not feel the “producer” owns them, and they have no obligation to work with them after their contract is completed. They can work with anyone they want to and so can you!
Malcolm
http://www.malcolmproductions.com -
The boss should have had you sign a non-compete clause prior to the edit essentially saying that if the third party approached you directly about working with them, you would have to go through the boss first.
I use freelancers all the time in our shop and one of the things we don’t have in place is a non-compete for freelancers. We DO however have an understanding that if I bring you in to work on a project with one of my clients, they’re still my client. If you decide to work directly with that client in the future, that will harm our relationship.
Fortunately I have a very good roster of freelancers who respect that I don’t steal their clients and they don’t steal mine. We have had a few instances where the client went directly to the freelancer for follow up work or potentially another project. In those cases, the freelancer contacted me first and we either worked it out or I simply released the project to the freelancer directly. It also works in reverse when I help out a colleague or another company with a project. If their end client calls me directly for a project, I go back through the original colleague / company before proceeding.
Open communication is the key. If I had enough work to keep a freelancer busy all the time I’d hire them. In lieu of that, I pay them a fair wage to do the work and trust that they respect me and my company enough that they won’t try to steal clients.
In your case, when the PBS Exec approached you directly, it would have been appropriate for you to at least let this boss know that they approached you and want to work directly with you. This would have probably defused what turned into what sounds like a bad situation for you where you got caught in the middle.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author, Chef.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative MediaRegister now for our Open House March 5
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Thanks for your insight. Makes sense. I should have probably called her. Let me ask you one other question. What in your area is a fare wage to pay freelance editors? Do you pay per project or per hour? Thanks!
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Walter,
“The boss should have had you sign a non-compete clause prior to the edit essentially saying that if the third party approached you directly about working with them, you would have to go through the boss first.”As an advocate of the non-compete, I was wondering if you extended this philosophy to other tradesmen you do business with?
How would you react if say, your plumber, mechanic, carpenter etc asked you to sign a non-compete contract?
If you decide to switch to a different barber, or electrician do you ask their permission first?
When you worked for someone else, did you ask the boss’ permission to send out your resume’ if you saw a job you were interested in?I don’t disagree with the overall sentiment of what you said, and that common courtesy should always be the rule.
Scott Sheriff
Director
https://www.sstdigitalmedia.comI have a system, it has stuff in it, and stuff hooked to it. I have a camera, it can record stuff. I read the manuals, and know how to use this stuff and lots of other stuff too.
You should be suitably impressed… -
“How would you react if say, your plumber, mechanic, carpenter etc asked you to sign a non-compete contract?
If you decide to switch to a different barber, or electrician do you ask their permission first?”In all of those cases I’m the client – and therefore can take my money where I like……
The Brit in Brisbane
The Pomme in Production – Brisbane Australia. -
It’s less about ethics than practicality. Everybody has to get by, and everybody has his reasons for doing what he does. But you as well have to be able to make a living, and live with yourself.
As a rule I agree with Mads and Walter. Common sense dictates that the freelancer should offer to pay the producer/former-friend APPROPRIATELY, e.g. 10%, not 50%. If the producer wanted 50% of the tiny budget, good-bye producer, so long friend.
Probably like most of the people on this thread, I’m basing this on personal experience. I’ve been in Lisa’s position, and had a client approach me directly — I always, always talk to the producer who introduced us, and make a deal (sometimes 0%, sometimes 10%) — and usually go on to do more jobs, where the client goes through the producer, who hires me again.
I’ve also been in Lisa’s producer’s position, when a hungry freelancer and a penny-pinching client collude behind my back. That’s a good way to find out that a client is a grinder, imho, and not worth keeping. And of course, although I’ll still hire him when necessary, the hungry freelancer won’t get the first call again.
Bob C
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Thanks to all for yr comments, I find this thread very interesting. I’ve been on both sides in different ways over the years, but as a freelance documentary producer, director, and editor, often for PBS, one thing in particular jumps out at me:
Total time on the Doc. – over 370 hours, Thousands of clips to import, lower thirds, rewrites, graphics, titles, mixing, changes, etc…. total pay – no exaggeration (I’m an idiot, I know) – $3,800. My fault for accepting these terms, but not ever having worked on anything longer than 12 minutes (besides weddings) I truly didn’t know how much work was involved.
My producer (friend) left her contract with PBS over my house a few days ago, – Total payment they paid her – $7,500. She made $3,700 for maybe a total of 60 hours of supervising my drafts and approving lower thirds that the PBS producer made me do over in the long run.
This was your FIRST hour doc. You’d never worked on anything longer than 12 minutes, expect for WEDDING VIDEOS.
To me, this screams big break. Your first PBS credit presumably, and first long-form. This puts you in a different job market. Before, I would never have hired you to cut long-form, even if you were my best friend. I tried that once and it was a disaster. Almost cost me an A&E hour. Now, assuming your hour is well-cut, I’d consider you.
So saying you’re an idiot cuz you didn’t know how much work was involved is not the point. It just shows that you did have a lot to learn about the process, and were probably, with all due respect, slower than someone who’d done even one before. Many people would happily take $10 an hour as you did to get that experience and credit. (I have many talented film students who would do it for free.) An experienced doc editor would have done it in less time, upping the hourly rate considerably.
Also, I can’t help suspecting that your “director of editing” (odd title… was there another director?) carried more weight than you’re aware of. Are you sure you know all the hours she put in? and what is her getting the job worth?
The sad part is PBS paying $7500 to cut an hour. They’re supposed to pay a living wage. But I don’t find the division of labor and money scandalous at all, and I hope you will reconsider feeling ripped off by yr friend. You may come to feel better about her and what you’ve gained.
That said, I don’t think a non-compete agreement is a good idea. Just sounds like hurt feelings on your (former?) friend’s part.
Sincerely,
Immy
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