follow-up to Vegasvs FCP (wondering about QUALITY)

[John Rofrano]

[Frank Black] “Someone mentioned that FCP doesn’t just take any type of file; it takes best quality files. And someone else had mentioned that Vegas & FCP both do the same for him, but that the FCP outcome looks “cleaner.” But he didn’t elaborate.”

They didn’t elaborate because they couldn’t elaborate because their claims were unfounded. FCP doesn’t just take any type of file because it only supports proprietary Apple formats. We (Vegas users) have no end of trouble giving files to post houses that use FCP because of FCP’s very limited ability to read files. Like you said later in your post, Vegas will take almost anything you throw at it whle FCP is extremely particular about what files it can use limiting your ability to work with client files.

As for FCP output looking cleaner… that’s just nonsense. What does “look cleaner” mean? You can get any “look” you want with any editing application. Most applications use the same plug-ins so I don’t know what “look cleaner” even means.

[Frank Black] “So is there a difference in quality? Regardless if I’m cutting a web-video, a music video, or a feature, if I want the better final look and sound, will FCP give me something that Vegas won’t, or will both be the same?”

Both will be the same. In fact, Vegas can produce higher quality files because Vegas will accept the native format from your camera and in some cases (like MPEG2) if you don’t change anything, it will output the exact same video frame pixels-for-pixel with NO LOSS in quality while FCP can’t even work with your native camera files, it will re-render them just to edit them and re-render them again to the output format. Every render has the potential of loosing quality so you tell me which is higher quality… no rendering with Vegas (or one render for non-MPEG2), or two renders with FCP?

[Frank Black] “I’ve got to add though, that I have a special place in my heart for the design of Apple products — everything from the logo to the Mac to the look of final cut. But for the meantime, it looks like Vegas is the way for me to go. But will I be sacrificing even a .00001% in quality? Any ideas?”

There is no doubt that Mac OSX has a nice clean look. Windows 7 is starting to look similar. Ubuntu Linux (which I use every day on my laptop for business) looks just as good as OSX. None of the looks have anything to do with the quality of the output of any piece of software. At the end of the day, it’s all about functionality and productivity. I have not seen an NLE that tops Vegas Pro in those categories which is why I use it.

[Frank Black] “Everyone says the same thing. But no one touches the “details” regarding quality in all the FCP/Vegas threads. “

Yea, it’s a little bit religious, and there are still people who think that “you need a Mac to make a music video”, and I am constantly shocked at how little Mac editors actually know about the inner workings of video and codecs which is probably why they have no technical answers to backup their senseless claims… but ignorance is bliss… and you can’t argue with being blissful. 😉

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Frank Black]

John, thanks a lot.

To be fair, it turns out that the gentleman said that FCP takes only SPECIFIC files, so that was my mistake. And in a similar thread he also says that the outcome will not be any “cleaner” in FCP. A different person said that.

Anyway, you gave some important details about Vegas, such as not needing to render again and again thereby risking the possible loss of quality. Is there anything else you can tell me that you think I, a beginner, would benefit from knowing from the start. Also, is there anything you can advise me on building a PC for Vegas off of Tiger Direct.

Thanks.

[Lawrence Farr]

Seems to me that FCP is a more complete overall system and it’s certainly more widely used in the TV. Some of the videos of it’s uses are nice… and relatively speaking you don’t see that kind of user for Vegas being shown on the Sony site.

https://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/in-action/

But most of us aren’t (are we?) shooting and editing network TV shows so the comparison (imo) isn’t really a valid one. FCP is a pretty well integrated system though.

I imagine if you had the same cameras the video would look the same.

[Dave Jenkins]

[John Rofrano] ” I am constantly shocked at how little Mac editors actually know about the inner workings of video and codecs which is probably why they have no technical answers to backup their senseless claims… “

John, I have been following Franks threads because it is nice to know what other edit systems can do. Your statement above is a hugh generalization about a small group of FCP editors. The opposite is much closer to fact in that FCP will on work natively with some codecs, so we as FCP editors need to understand codecs and what we can work with. When someone calls me with an existing FCP project that happens a lot!
My first question is what codec are you editing in?

Please don’t make unfounded generalizations because we edit on a mac. I would never do that about PC editors!

Dajen Productions, Santa Barbara, CA
MacPro Two 2.8GHz Quad Core – AJA Kona LHe
FCS 3 OS X 10.6 QT 10

[John Rofrano]

[Dave Jenkins] “Please don’t make unfounded generalizations because we edit on a mac. I would never do that about PC editors!”

Dave, I usually don’t make generalizations and I never make unfounded statements so allow me to share the “foundation” with you.

My statements are based on several months of trying to get a an HDCAM tape made from Vegas. We have dealt with over a dozen post houses all of which use FCP and none of which can handle anything but an uncompressed MOV file or ProRes422. One post house even suggested that we couldn’t use a PC to create a file for HDCAM tapes and that we should buy a Mac. When I tried to explain that FCP can ingest Sony MXF files if they would install the free plug-in from Sony I was met with disbelief and resistance. When I asked if I could send them Avid DNxHD I was told they could not handle it. (I’m pretty sure FCP accepts this)

We still don’t have an HDCAM tape. We found one house that was willing to work with us and is using a BlackMagic card with FCP so we’re sending them a Quicktime file using the BlackMagic 10-bit codec. We’ll see what happens. (fingers crossed)

So you may be the first FCP editor I’ve encountered that really understands codecs, but if the opposite of my generalization is much closer to fact… they certainly aren’t working at the post houses across America (‘cuz I haven’t found one yet).

My apologies if my statements offended you, that was never my intent. This was just my personal observation and I remain amazed at the professionals that work at post houses and their lack of technical acumen. You’d think that they would be the gurus on handling all kinds of formats.

PS. Does your company make HDCAM tapes with closed captioning? 😉

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Jonathan Thomas]

Yes it does. It seems to me editing on an Apple Mac monitor. The video looks much cleaner than on any other system. I am a Vegas user… but I have to admit when watching my work on a friend Mac monitor it looks much better on his system. I was shock!!!! What I have is LG HD monitor and duel Sony monitors. However, the same video on a Mac it looks much better!!!

Let me say this!!! I am a Sony man.

· 2 Sony monitors and 2 Vaio’s Lap Top and Desk Top computers
· 3 Sony DV camcorders and 1 HDV
· 1 Sony digital still cameras
· 4 Sony digital printer
· 2 Sony digital Mini DV Video Walkman Player
· 1 Sony Triniton TV monitor
· 3- 10 upgrade Sony Vegas, Acid and Forge

So I am being honest.

[John Rofrano]

[Jonathan Thomas] “Yes it does. It seems to me editing on an Apple Mac monitor. The video looks much cleaner than on any other system.”

I agree that Apple Cinema Display is a really nice looking monitor but you can always buy an Apple monitor and plug it into your PC. 😉 Also, make sure you are comparing monitors of equal value. One thing about Apple is that they use high quality components so make sure you compare it to an equal quality PC component (i.e., don’t compare the $1,000 Apple LED Cinema Display (27″ flat panel) monitor to a $150 PC monitor because you will be disappointed with the $150 monitor).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com

[Peter Nestor]

john rofrano

My statements are based on several months of trying to get a an HDCAM tape made from Vegas. We have dealt with over a dozen post houses all of which use FCP and none of which can handle anything but an uncompressed MOV file or ProRes422. One post house even suggested that we couldn’t use a PC to create a file for HDCAM tapes and that we should buy a Mac. When I tried to explain that FCP can ingest Sony MXF files if they would install the free plug-in from Sony I was met with disbelief and resistance. When I asked if I could send them Avid DNxHD I was told they could not handle it.

I don’t know about anyone else, but this is REALLY scary!
{ and I know enough to believe its true}

It seems Sony priority #1, should be establishing a SONY/
PC friendly Hollywood Post house. Don’t they own a studio
?! How can Vegas “pro” be taken seriously if this
is the reaction in Hollywood??

[Frank Black]

John, what do you mean by “HD Cam tapes for Vegas?”

[Frank Black]

Jonathan, have you ever seen a comparison of outputs to a TV? You say that on the Mac monitor it looks better, but do you think when FCP and Vegas final cuts are both shown on a TV, do you think you wouldn’t notice that difference that you noticed on the monitors?

I’m trying to figure out if it’s the monitors. It sounds like it. Plus all the guys above gave details as to why there shouldn’t be a difference.