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FCP6 Does NOT Add Pulldown When Mixing Formats
I don’t understand how or why they would get this wrong. But appearantly they did.
Put a 23.98 clip into a 29.97 NTSC sequence. It doesn’t add 3:2 pulldown when outputting SDI. Instead it adds a duplicate frame every 4 frames or so. Just like how it worked in Final Cut 5.
Upon playback it looks fine most of the time on most displays. But there will be stuttering during camera pans. Regardless of how good it looks or not, 3:2 pulldown is ALWAYS added when converting 24p to 60i. Always. Whether it’s an actual telecine, a Kona, a Teranex, or the built-in downconverted output from an HDCam deck – 3:2 pulldown is always added. There is a reason for it. 3:2 pulldown duplicates individual fields – not entire frames. This creates smoother motion, and it is why it is always used. Someone at Apple either disregarded that fact or was completely oblivious to the concept.
I was excited for the prospect of capturing everything native framerate and not having to worry about mixing them together on a 29.97 timeline. So much for that prospect.
Between this and the fact that FCP6 doesn’t properly transcode between 480 lines and 486 lines (a problem FCP5 did NOT have), it’s become appearantly clear that the people at Apple who were beind this mixed format feature didn’t have the slightest clue what they are doing. This isn’t frickin Appeture. There are well-known quirks about video conversion that the designers should have been made aware of. What a disspointment.
It’s things like this why people still tout Avid superiority. I’m not saying that’s how I feel, but Apple sure as hell doesn’t make it hard for people to promote the idea.
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28 Replies
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[Sean ONeil] “Put a 23.98 clip into a 29.97 NTSC sequence. It doesn’t add 3:2 pulldown when outputting SDI. Instead it adds a duplicate frame every 4 frames or so. Just like how it worked in Final Cut 5.”
From when they announced mixed frame rates I was sceptical on if it would really change my workflow. While you can now at least rough edit with mixed frame rates, you still need to fix it before you online.
It just goes to show again that editing and delivering are completely different skill sets. That’s why we skill have post houses in the world.
-Russ
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Actually, I found that in FCP 5 if you place a 486 clip in a 480 sequence that FCP did screw it up. It simply centered it vertically, instead of leaving 2 lines off the canvas at the top, and 4 off at the bottom.
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Hmmm….not true Brett. I always found that FCP would offset the clip vertically 1 pixel so the fields would line up.
That was my experience.
Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media -
Bret,
Rich is right. It appears to just center it, but it does indeed offset it by one line. Final Cut 4 even did this too by adding a “shift fields” filter.
Even if it did just center it, that would still be better than what FCP6 does. Apparently it SCALES it – which is just absolutely ridiculous.
Sean
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Regarding the lack of pulldown issue, for those that don’t quite understand it, this is the best way I can explain it:
Each pair of numbers represents two fields within a frame. The number itself represents the original frame of the 24p source footage.
This is how normal, proper 3:2 pulldown looks:
11 22 23 34 45 55
And this is the hair-brained method Final Cut uses:
11 22 33 44 44 55
As you can see, with the proper method frames 2 and 5 remain visible for only 50% longer than they’re supposed to. But with the whacked FCP method, frame 4 remains visible twice as long as its supposed to. This is not good.
Furthermore, I’m not sure there’s a way to reverse it. If I were to master a Digibeta using this method, I don’t think someone else could could capture it using reverse telecine. Not to mention all the consumer products that do reverse telecine, like high-end progressive-scan and upconverting DVD players with built-in film detection. That’s really not good. What the **** were they thinking?
Sean
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[Sean ONeil] “Put a 23.98 clip into a 29.97 NTSC sequence. It doesn’t add 3:2 pulldown when outputting SDI.”
Sean
if your outputting SDi, then is this not a card issue?“3:2 pulldown is ALWAYS added when converting 24p to 60i.”
unless you choose to input the pulldown at 2:3:3:2 for removal later, both are possible with a kona card by setting the preference in the control panel.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
[Sean ONeil] “Between this and the fact that FCP6 doesn’t properly transcode between 480 lines and 486 lines”
A first time poster alerted the Cow today that there’s a preference in FCP6 about scaling footage to fit the timeline. ‘Yojimbo’ said it was in the User Preferences, Editing tab.
As far as FCP not adding 3:2, the pattern you describe is adding 2:2:2:4 which is what FCP used to do for 23.98 dv footage if your computer wasn’t fast enough to add 3:2. Perhaps there’s a setting/preference for this somewhere? I have not done the upgrade yet, obviously.
Jeremy
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[gary adcock] “if your outputting SDi, then is this not a card issue?
No, not at all. This is Final Cut issue. No question about it. A Kona/Decklink is only capable of outputting one format. It would have no way of knowing that some of the clips need 3:2 pulldown, and some are native 29.97. Despite all that, you’re not supposed to be limited to outputting through a card. What if I want to export a Quicktime for use on another NLE or DVD authoring?
Final Cut 6 advertises mixing supported formats as a new feature, even mixed framerates. This means it’s supposed to work properly no matter what. And the ONLY proper way to convert 23.98 footage into 29.97 is to add 3:2 pulldown. Its as simple as that. Whether you are outputting SDI or not, it should be there. Or at least the option to add it.
Gramme Nattress provides the “Add Pulldown” filter. With all due respect to him, it’s destructive and a complete workflow nightmare. You have to conform the media to 30p first using Cinema Tools. Then re-import it and add the filter. No knock on him, I’m sure it’s the best thing that can be achieved using FXscript.
Even if the Natress filter was easy to use, we shouldn’t need it. FCP6 is supposed to be a proper format converter now that you can officially mix formats. That is the foundation of how it can work. Yet it can’t properly convert 24p (HD or SD) to 60i NTSC or 1080 – probably some of the most common forms of conversion people would use. So it’s obviously a major problem.
The real poison pill here is that it still LOOKS good to the naked eye. That is why it slipped by, and why people are likely to not even notice it or care about it. But looks are deceiving – I assure you this is a serious problem, and this is yet another example of why Final Cut often gets shrugged off as not being “Pro” enough.
[gary adcock] “unless you choose to input the pulldown at 2:3:3:2 for removal later, both are possible with a kona card by setting the preference in the control panel.”
You will never find a broadcast tape with 2:3:3:2. That’s just a goofy prosumer form of pulldown used by certain DV equipment. Let’s not get off topic.
Sean
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[JeremyG] “As far as FCP not adding 3:2, the pattern you describe is adding 2:2:2:4 which is what FCP used to do for 23.98 dv footage if your computer wasn’t fast enough to add 3:2. Perhaps there’s a setting/preference for this somewhere? I have not done the upgrade yet, obviously.”
I hope you are right, but I looked and couldn’t find anything. Even if it is there (I’m fairly certain it isn’t) the default should be 3:2:2:3, without question.
Sean
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[JeremyG] “A first time poster alerted the Cow today that there’s a preference in FCP6 about scaling footage to fit the timeline. ‘Yojimbo’ said it was in the User Preferences, Editing tab.”
BTW, yes I did see that. The problem is you want the feature enabled to convert between SD and HD.
Another thing. If you place a 1080 or 720 clip into a 486 timeline, it SHOULD always scale that to 480, not 486. I haven’t tried it but I have a feeling it doesn’t, rather it scales it to 486 which is not good.
Again, it’s really obvious that the people behind this design were totally oblivious to the quirks regarding the proper way to perform certain video conversions.
Sean
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