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EXTREMELY URGENT (at least for me)
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Not one to jump into a fight, but one thing that seems to be overlooked is this editor has a project that is under way – a 23.98 timeline and captured footage. He now needs to add some SD to that timeline. So he can start from sratch and go with a 29.97 timeline and recapture everything or he can make the new footage work with the 23.97 timeline he already has. Seems to me he should just upconvert the SD to HD and then convert the frame rate of the new footage he has to use.
Then when done the debate over what frame rate is best to start with can be engaged.
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[msacci] “but one thing that seems to be overlooked is this editor has a project that is under way – a 23.98 timeline and captured footage.”
This has been discussed and suggestions have been given, and Budrick21 obviously knows we are here if they need help.
Jeremy
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[Bob Zelin] ” However, when delivering to a television enviornment, which will run their facility at 29.97 (or 59.94), I question the 23.98 workflow in post.”
The conversion to PAL and other formats alone is the great reason (which has been mentioned earlier). As long as we are talking about multi formats, a 23.98 web movie will stream a lot faster than a 59.94. Also making a progressive image will display a lot better on digital monitors than an interlaced one. Let’s face it, the times are a changing. You can watch tv on cell phones/ipods, all progressive displays. 23.98 is much better as it not only saves on bandwidth (I know you list this an an invalid argument, but on the contrary it’s a huge talking point) but you can virtually get to any other format easily. FIlm, NTSC TV, PAL TV, web, ipod, sling box, cardboard box, whatever.
[Bob Zelin] “I question 23.98 when much of the source material you are working with is standard def 29.97”
Well if MUCH of the material is 29.97, then yes, but if 5% of it is, then we as editors have to deal with that. SD is not HD is not SD. We deal.
[Bob Zelin] “I question 23.98 workflow, when major cable providers, like VIACOM, won’t even accept an HD master for air (VH-1 and MTV, for example)”
Agreed, but that has nothing to do with 23.98, that has to do with HD vs SD, another discussion.
AS far as Hd deliverables, yeah, maybe it’s not time yet, but that’s not the editors fault nor are they a moron. See where I am going with that? They are not a moron. The most of his project was 23.98 and then at the last minute they bring in SD stuff, he has to deal with it. No biggie. He’s not a moron for that, especially with a Kona 3.
[Bob Zelin] “Saying that “you will save room in storage” is not an acceptable answer when storage is so inexpensive these days. Believe me, I am trying to get with the times. “
That’s not the only answer, see a few answers above. A 23.98 progressive master goes to virtually any other format, and probably some that you aren’t even thinking of that go beyond tv in the living room.
[Bob Zelin] “By the way, do you know that Discovery is expected to require a SRW 4:4:4 delivery soon ? Is that getting with the times, or do you fight with them ? “
No I don’t fight with them. I have never done a Discovery HD show, but I tell ya, that’s some great looking HD on that channel and I could see why they are trying to maintain quality. Does that mean you have to shoot 4:4:4 for them as well or just deliver an srw master?
Jeremy
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Yes. Did you catch the intended irony? (!)
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A little history on this project:
It’s a two-hour science documentary that was begun by another team of producers. How and why they chose the format they did, I don’t know.
Because of creative differences, the Executive Producer took the project away from the original team and brought it in-house. The facility is healthy-sized, with a subtstantial installed Avid base, but a desire to move to Final Cut. The techs know Avid but have never seen a BM or Kona card. Contractors like me are not supposed to alter the equipment, even though I was brought in for my “technical knowledge” (it’s true!)
The lead editor (I’m the assistant) is also an Avid guy, but knows some Final Cut. So I’m a support player, and expected to be able to solve technical issues and FCP questions.
We start with a BlackMagic card, but word is that the editor wasn’t happy with it, so the techs swapped in a Kona card. At that point we leave my area of expertise, such as it is, and I turn to you guys ( tech support managed to install the Kona before I got in, and left me nice note to the effect of, “You’re all set, except for picture and sound.”)
Just to add to the fun, I had a detailed set of instructions given to me directly by someone at AJA, who gave me the wrong settings. I found it was possible, but not desirable, to upconvert 525i to 23.98p.
Yes, it was a headache and it cost me a half-day, but thanks to those of you who responed, I found my way through the thicket.
It may sound like a nightmare, but I’m a freelancer and some of this goes with the territory. On the plus side, it pays reasonably and I like the project.
So thanks again, and good luck to you all.
Budrick
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The only person who should be proud here, is Budrick. He is working with a bunch of people that cannot be bothered with anything new, and Budrick, who is a FREELANCE assistant editor, has put the effort out to MAKE IT HAPPEN, despite the incompetance of the technical staff “that only knows AVID equipment” – let me assure you, they are probably weak at AVID equipment, and can’t be bothered with anything new. There is nothing wrong with Blackmagic hardware, and if they can’t put the time into figuring out how to get Blackmagic stuff to work, they can’t be bothered figuring out how to get AJA stuff to work. It is you, Budrick, who are putting in the effort. You should be proud of yourself, and you will go far, as you are not like the lazy good for nothing people that you are surrounded by. Sorry for being so gruff. The “AVID only” staff are the very same people that used to say that “AVID SUCKS” when linear systems were prevalent in our industry.
Bob Zelin
It’s a two-hour science documentary that was begun by another team of producers. How and why they chose the format they did, I don’t know.
Because of creative differences, the Executive Producer took the project away from the original team and brought it in-house. The facility is healthy-sized, with a subtstantial installed Avid base, but a desire to move to Final Cut. The techs know Avid but have never seen a BM or Kona card. Contractors like me are not supposed to alter the equipment, even though I was brought in for my “technical knowledge” (it’s true!)
The lead editor (I’m the assistant) is also an Avid guy, but knows some Final Cut. So I’m a support player, and expected to be able to solve technical issues and FCP questions.
We start with a BlackMagic card, but word is that the editor wasn’t happy with it, so the techs swapped in a Kona card. At that point we leave my area of expertise, such as it is, and I turn to you guys ( tech support managed to install the Kona before I got in, and left me nice note to the effect of, “You’re all set, except for picture and sound.”)
Just to add to the fun, I had a detailed set of instructions given to me directly by someone at AJA, who gave me the wrong settings. I found it was possible, but not desirable, to upconvert 525i to 23.98p.
Yes, it was a headache and it cost me a half-day, but thanks to those of you who responed, I found my way through the thicket.
It may sound like a nightmare, but I’m a freelancer and some of this goes with the territory. On the plus side, it pays reasonably and I like the project.
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[Bob Zelin] “veryone that owns an HD camera wants to shoot in 23.98 (stop saying 24, because some cameras will operate at 24 FPS, and this is WRONG FOR EVERYONE except George Lucas).”
Sorry Bob I Disagree.
it would be not be better since the vast majority of people out there working in 24p (23.98) to keep that nomenclature correct that those that work in 24.0 (or 24 TRUE) define themselves. Let the minority identify themselves, let the majority be 23.98
The overwhelming majority of people working in production today have little or no understanding of film or film production, or what the difference between 24.0 and 23.98.
I am absolutely aghast wow many people also seem to be convinced that shooting 24pA will give you 24.0 while shooting 24p gives you 23.98.I am sorry but I think this a an ass backwards way to go.
Less and Less people are shooting 24.0 in the modern production and I work with camera and productions that can and do shot 24.0 daily, but I tell them not to, there is no need, all of the tape machines handle 23.98 footage, as do all NLEs.
You way of thinking will make it harder that it is.gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
“[Bob Zelin] “By the way, do you know that Discovery is expected to require a SRW 4:4:4 delivery soon ? Is that getting with the times, or do you fight with them ? “
that’s not correct Bob,
they want HDCam SR just like everyone’s else Spec’s, SR can be many things even 720p.Discovery wants 4:4;4 master only on productions that are acquired in RGB, which is standard for RGB acquired materials.
gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows -
I am so glad I live in PAL land. We usually edit 25i or 25p, and even if we get material in the other standard in the middle of the project, no worries, it’ll playback fine. We don’t have a thing called SETUP. Though, I should keep my mouth closed, most of the world was digital when I enterd the business and I know enough to turn down or solve problem projects.
/Pasi
https://kanalje.se – site in Swedish
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[DopeElf] “We don’t have a thing called SETUP”
NTSC doesn’t either, unless you are mastering SD analog 😀
This isn’t a problem project, it is the normal, run of the mill 24p <-> NTSC dealings that are part of our job.
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