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Editors opinion – Panasonic HPX-300 v. Sony EX3 footage
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[walter biscardi] “That’s true of all HD cameras. But are you going to carry about an external recorder on all your field shoots?”
That’s just what many people do with the nanoFlash, which barely adds any size or weight to the camera. It’s not as if you need to lug around a disk array.
I’m simply pointing out that you aren’t stuck with only what the camera manufacturers provide. By using an external recorder, you can put together an ideal system in which you can choose the best camera features (image sensor and processing) without compromising on recording quality.
It really all depends on your shooting style. Obviously, run-and-gun ENG guys are going to be less comfortable with external recording devices than DPs who are used to matte boxes, follow focus systems and all sorts of other stuff hanging off of the camera.
Horses for courses.
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[Alan Okey] “Stepping up to the next level in price, I agree that Panasonic has the overall advantage. I just wanted to offer an alternative opinion.”
Alternative opinions are great.
In our testing, we used the EX1 and EX3 on a television pilot shoot with absolutely perfect studio lighting and outdoor material. The output of both HD-SDI outputs were fed to my 2 Panasonic 1400 decks.
When comparing the footage from EX cards and the DVCPro HD tapes, the deficiency in the EX cameras was abundant. Lack of color and a ton of compression artifacts off the EX card compared to the very clean image off the DVCPro HD tape.
The outdoor stuff, well, that was only recorded on the EX cameras and it was lousy. I ended up applying all sorts of blurs and “treating it.”
If you plan to take HD-SDI output from the camera and record to something that’s ProRes or Uncompressed, then it doesn’t matter. If you plan to record to the card itself, I would take the Panny image as an editing image. It just holds up much better in color correction and filtering.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media“Foul Water, Fiery Serpent” now in Post.
Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. -
[walter biscardi] “If you plan to take HD-SDI output from the camera and record to something that’s ProRes or Uncompressed, then it doesn’t matter. If you plan to record to the card itself, I would take the Panny image as an editing image. It just holds up much better in color correction and filtering. “
And at this time I do not plan on recording to a external device, I would be recording to cards only.
Also, I use a lot of filters and colour correction in post, so knowing and hearing from you, someone doing this day in and day out, that the Panasonic footage holds up better is good to know. This is the info I was looking for.Thanks.
PHIL
PHIL YUNKER
Yunker Video Production Services
http://www.philyunker.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/philyunker -
[walter biscardi] “4:2:0 […] vs 4:2:2”
If the native sensor resolution of the “4:2:2” camera is 960×720 (like the HVX200), you end up with much less color resolution than what you get with the 4:2:0 from the native 1920×1080 sensor on the EX3. So it’s not just about the ratios, but about the absolute numbers.
The HVX200 does a lot of interpolation magic before storing its images, but “magic” is what it is.
The old Varicam managed to pull beautiful miracles out of the 1280×720 DVCProHD codec, and it was a life saver when most computers were too slow for full raster HD.
The HPX300 OTOH has a native 1920x1080p sensor with 10-bit 4:2:2 recording. That’s a different animal, and quite desirable. The stock lens seems to vary a lot in quality, so it would be helpful to buy from a local store where you could handpick a lens (if they’re VERY friendly), or upgrade the lens to something more reliable.
Which camera is best will depend on many factors, and certainly I haven’t seen all the deficiencies that Walter has seen. Some people prefer the Panny color rendition, others like the Sony way.
I’m more fond of the Panny mid-range cameras (Varicam 3700) than the Sony ditto (PDW series), but so much can be changed in post that you have to look at other factors too.
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Hi Phil
There are many things that you must consider.
– Captor size: in the year 2010, you can not go to a 1/3 inch captor.
– Codec; Sure 422. 10b Uncompress is better than 8b Uncompress. This doesn’t means that every 10b picture is always better than 8b picture. 10b cameras are stuffing the picture in 100Mbps, while some 8b solutions offers 280Mbps. Don’t dismiss 8b: better a solid 8b picture than a very compressed 10b.
– Worflow; What do you want, Drag&drop and edit? or to convert all your footage before editing?
So:
– I would like a camera with a 2’/3″ CMOS, but all of them are too bulky for my needs.
– I want 10b recording but not crunched in 100 Mbps (The Ki-Pro will be perfect when you’ll be able to put it in your pocket and power it with an small battery).
I’m working with the EX-1 and the NANO and for me this is the best combination (picture quality-rig size – price) I can imagine and afford.
Cheers,
rafael
I won’t deny that I’m biassed -
[Rafael Amador] “- Worflow; What do you want, Drag&drop and edit? or to convert all your footage before editing?
So:”Just an FYI, AVC-Intra codec is drag and drop editing with FCP 7. Just in case Phil isn’t aware of that.
Walter Biscardi, Jr.
Editor, Colorist, Director, Writer, Consultant, Author.
HD Post and Production
Biscardi Creative Media“Foul Water, Fiery Serpent” now in Post.
Creative Cow Forum Host:
Apple Final Cut Pro, Apple Motion, Apple Color, AJA Kona, Business & Marketing, Maxx Digital. -
[Rafael Amador] “- Captor size: in the year 2010, you can not go to a 1/3 inch captor.”
Rafael,
thanks again for replying to another one of my posts while I’m trying to decide on which camera to buy.
please elaborate on the “can not go to a 1/3 inch captor”
How are you mounting your nanoflash on your camera?
Bias or passionate about your gear, no problem, we all are.thanks again.
PHIL
PHIL YUNKER
Yunker Video Production Services
http://www.philyunker.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/philyunker -
[walter biscardi] “Just an FYI, AVC-Intra codec is drag and drop editing with FCP 7. Just in case Phil isn’t aware of tha”
Oh, that’s cool. I did not know that.
Thanks.
PHIL YUNKER
Yunker Video Production Services
http://www.philyunker.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/philyunker -
One assumes he is talking about sensor size, as many broadcasters (e.g. BBC for example) are not happy with you using cameras that have an image sensor that are under ½” for capturing HD these days (plus bit rate of under 50Mbit).
If you do use a camera with a sensor under 1/2 they will often let you only use footage from that camera up to a certain percentage of a program, e.g. I seem to recall the BBC say a max of 15% (but I could be wrong).
The AJ-HPX300 is 1/3″, EX1/3 are 1/2″ sensors. Go for the AG-HPX500, it has 2/3″ sensors, I considder it to be a top camera for the price.
That is my take on Rafael’s post, but maybe he is refering to something else.
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Hi Phil,
I can not hide that I’m biased, but as you have noticed, my only NO to the PANAS have been the 1/3″ captor of the 300. The rest have been just points you should consider before buying your camera.
Phil, when the kids run in the street with 35mm SLR cameras and recording these incredible things in a poor 40Mbps H264 you should ask your self why and how: THE LENS & THE CAPTOR is what makes the difference.
And this is not just a fashion.
I’m a forced cameraman and not the most indicated person to explain you all about this. As soon as you research a bit you will realize that the captor size is critical for the quality of the picture, and is a factor ion issues as noise, or how the lenses behave and affect the picture (DoF etc).
The success of the EX-1/3, haven’t been because the codecs, but the 1/2″19020×1080 full raster CMOS.
People, who new, choose the 420/36Mbps MPEG-2 of the EX-1 instead of the 100Mbps/422/intraframe of the Panasonic just because the CMOS.
The advantages of a better codec just got smashed by a ridiculous small captor and not HD of the PANAs..I would recommend you to close your ears to any discussion about codecs or brands.
Think about lens, captor size, media (card), workflow and file size for archiving. Ergonomic and size is to consider too.
My rig is “perfect” in the sense that there is no much I can do to improve it. Sure there are many things to do and buy, but any extra gear or better camera would increase the size and weight, and for me this is a no-no. If I would find a lighter camera with SDI, 1’2″ captor and a nice lens, I wouldn’t care the brand or the native codec.About the NANO, aside of the quality and size, the best may be that opens many possibilities for recording and production.
I just bought an small POV camera with SDI out and this year I will try to film tigers in the north of laos. I expect to be with the NANO (at least) 70 meters apart from the camera.
Even for authoring BluRay is incredible: Just plug it to the SDI of the AJA, and you get an incredible MPEG-2 BR compliant in RT.
To mount it, our pal Olof (https://westsideav.com/EX1plate/index.html) had designed a very nice plate.
Cheers,
rafael
PS: I’m still in FC 6 so I had no idea of the fact pointed by Walter on drag&drop the P2 files.
Sure this easy very much the workflow now.
I think we are going to a kind of modular cameras (Lens-captor/processor (multi-codec?)-recorder.
Hopefully we will be less tied by the dictatorship of the big brands.
They are very good but they seem unable to get in tune with the users needs.
And sorry if I wrote too much. You know, Saturday evening and raining.
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