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Editing scenario
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[Walter Soyka] “What do you find lacking with FCPX’s three-point editing? What’s the harm in storing a single point as a range that extends to the media limit on the other side? Since FCP7 only offered a single set of persistent I/O point(s), what’s limiting about the overlapping favorite restriction in FCPX?”
Oops, I’ve just answered quite a bit of that in my post to Jeremy here:
https://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/335/34389
Ranges in FCPX are the only selection option and that’s not good enough. See for example my point about the inability to backtime a three point edit using one O mark only in the Browser. Not possible. Because you can only select a range in the Browser. A serious design flaw.
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
[Simon Ubsdell] “Because you can’t have overlapping favorites as everybody knows. That’s a really significant thing.”
Yes, I would say one of the blatant flaws of the concept.
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[Simon Ubsdell] “So to reiterate, please let’s stop arguing about persistent I and O, and let’s start a discussion about persistent I only. Or persistent O only. The difference between AND and OR is the crucial one. FCPX allows for AND (kind of) but won’t allow OR in any useful sense.”
Yep!
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David Lawrence
art~media~design~research
propaganda.com
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[Richard Herd] “Back in October, this was the real eye opener, for me, that Jim posted: bussing in X.
“It’s going to be real interesting to see how Apple wraps their noggins around multitrack audio mixing in the promised upgrade. A genuine mixer would be such a great enhancement in concert with the group/bussing approach, the real issue being the ability to control all audio, in real time, without having to drill down to get it.
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[David Lawrence] “The difference between AND and OR is the crucial one. FCPX allows for AND (kind of) but won’t allow OR in any useful sense.”
Yep!”
From a design point of view, there is surely a case to be made that “range selection” which is the only kind of selection available in FCPX is going to have its limitations.
One very clear one that I have pointed to above is that you can’t actually do one kind of backtimed three point edit – namely set an IO in the timeline and set an O only in the browser. This won’t work in FCPX because the selection in the browser is always and only a range – the browser doesn’t actually speak the language of IO.
This is not a good thing.
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
[Simon Ubsdell] “The point is that in FCPX every selection MUST be a range whether you like it or not. And a lot of the time I don’t actually want a range. I only want an I OR an O.”
And you would be right. There’s no either/or.
I guess I use markers to stab a reference point.
I use markers a lot in FCP7 as they stay with the footage, I guess that’s why I don’t mind favorites. It’s a natural extension of what I’m used to. Ins/out get easily changed and deleted (this is where the definition of persistence helps. As David says, words matter).
[Simon Ubsdell] “The second point about three point editing in FCPX is that (unless it’s something I’ve been overlooking all this time) you can’t backtime a three point edit using only and I or an O in the Browser. (You can of course do this if you set a range in the Browser and use Shift/Edit Function, but that’s different.)
“Backtime, is essentially, using the out, regular edit is using the in.
Setting a range on the Project and backtiming is essentially lining up the out points. Again, it looks different, but it’s there.
Jeremy
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[Jeremy Garchow] “Backtime, is essentially, using the out, regular edit is using the in.
Setting a range on the Project and backtiming is essentially lining up the out points. Again, it looks different, but it’s there.”
Yes, as I said, you can perform a backtime edit that uses a single O in the timeline, BUT …
you can’t perform a backtime edit that uses a single O in the browser.
And that’s because FCPX only know about “ranges”, it doesn’t “actually” know about I and O, except cosmetically, as I have explained before.
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
[Jeremy Garchow] “The rest of your questions I think are summed up by Phlip H.”
I read that when it was originally posted. Philip talks about how hard PIOPs would be to implement, and suggests that the database as written couldn’t support it, and he talks about how backwards anyone who wants PIOPs thinks. He argues that they would make the application too complex, and then he dismisses the whole conversation, saying he isn’t going to waste a single additional brain cycle on it because the whole idea is so very, very wrong.
I agree more with Andy Mees in the comments.
I’ll go a step further. An appeal to “the database” as a reason that something can’t be done is not a get-out-of-jail-free card. Apple designed the whole kit and and caboodle, so if the database is a limiting factor, that’s still a consequence of their broader application design. I thought that we had to leave FCP7 behind because its creaky old architecture was too limiting to allow new features. Now I guess FCPX’s architecture is too beautiful to dirty up with things like real world user requests.
All that said, I actually like favorites. I think they’re well done, and I think they’re very powerful. I just think that marking IOPs should carry more weight than marking a selection, and I don’t think the app should nuke that user-created data irretrievably when the user simply clicks away to select something else.
But I guess that’s just backwards thinking.
Walter Soyka
Principal & Designer at Keen Live
Motion Graphics, Widescreen Events, Presentation Design, and Consulting
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[Walter Soyka] “What’s the harm in storing a single point as a range that extends to the media limit on the other side?”
I wonder whether the limitation of range selection is at the root of why we still don’t have the traditional Replace edit function (Replace in FCPX is not the same and very limited by comparison).
Replace is the single most useful edit function in traditional NLEs as it saves several steps on a huge variety of edits, as well of course as enabling sync point editing.
There has to be a good reason why it’s still not implemented and the limitation of range selection could well be behind it.
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
[Simon Ubsdell] “Yes, as I said, you can perform a backtime edit that uses a single O in the timeline, BUT …
you can’t perform a backtime edit that uses a single O in the browser.
And that’s because FCPX only know about “ranges”, it doesn’t “actually” know about I and O, except cosmetically, as I have explained before.”
eh frack.
What do you want to do? Line up out points?
You can do that. Set a range in the Project. set the out in the browser, set the in for the beginning of the clip.
Backtime the edit (shift-d or shift-q). Your completed edit is exactly like a three point edit using the out point in FCP7.
You guys are relentless with your “can’t dos”.
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