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Editing scenario
I’m curious about how to best cut something like this in X. I’m currently editing it in 7 and honestly, it seems like anything trackless would make it a struggle, but I’ll toss this out for comment.
This is a typical corporate presentation piece. The type companies run at the end of a large retreat, conference or meeting to congratulate folks on the past year’s accomplishments. Components are usually a handful of sync sound bites, 3-4 highly edited pop/hip-hop tracks, animation/graphics, and lots and lots of B-Roll. Since the objective is to show as many people as possible, shot length is often 1-2 secs. and the overall length is usually 6-10 min. for the finished piece. So, often hundreds of B-roll shots. The structure is generally designed as alternating sections of sound bites (music dipped underneath) with sections of B-roll to music, often with music selection changes at the segment changes. Editing the music cues is as much a “DJ” function as it is editing.
The challenges are the things you have no control over. Client requested music, the need to re-arrange, add or remove images and sound bites based on corporate politics and other unforeseen considerations. Client changes their mind, but can’t be there during the edit, so reviews and makes changes remotely (FTP, e-mail, sneakernet). Often repeatedly. The music is difficult to work with because it has lyrics and doesn’t mix well under sound bites. Client requests music selection changes or clip changes that result in having to completely re-arrange or re-edit music. All of this is a normal part of editing, of course.
So in X, the idea of putting the sound bites on the primary storyline is hampered by the need to re-arrange/add/remove. That’s because often you have to change order and placement, but not change the location of the B-Roll shots. When you change the music for a different piece, all B-roll shots (connected clips) have to be re-edited as the beat structure has changed. Doesn’t seem to work to put the B-roll shots in a secondary storyline, as that’s only connected at one point, so harder to re-edit. You can’t work with compound clips, because all changes are interactive to other elements in the sequence.
I’m not saying this can’t be done in X, merely that I haven’t found a way that works better than with tracks. Auditions are a non-starter, because – 1) don’t know what you have to prep in order to use Audition since you don’t know what will change, 2) the client is generally reviewing long distance, so no one is there to preview the Auditions, 3) you don’t have enough time to build all the permutations that Auditions would require. In 7, I find that I use empty places on the timeline as a scratch pad to park clips while I’m re-arranging elements. I also copy & paste groups of clips between sequences (yes, I know you can C&P clips in X).
In X, it seems like the best approach is to have only a gap/placeholder on the primary storyline and then build everything as connected clips That seems the most workable, but it’s an incredibly, inefficient use of GUI space and the timeline is a complete mess.
The bottom line is how do you guys that have done this, tackle a similar project? Especially one in which each and every element in the project can be changed by the client and probably will be. Thanks.
– Oliver
Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com -
292 Replies
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I often cut sizzles like this. The only difference is mine tend to max out at about half the length, but with a similar number of shots. I also have a heavy added sfx layer. I can’t even begin to imagine how to judiciously deal with something like this in X. I’d be willing to listen, though.
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Lots of interesting questions there and a lot of very tricky challenges.
As you say, the cleint continously requiring changes that you can’t possibly predict adds a much great level of complexity to this kind of job. Great of you’re working by yourself on your own project because you can make the rules up before you start – but when you don’t know what the rules are likely to be, that’s when it gets hairy!
I did cut a small piece like this a while back in FCPX and I was amazed at how quickly I got in awkward spots once the client started picking at the edit and the music. (The worst part was trying to nbegotiate around transitions which quickly make a mess of your timeline and the ease with which you can manipulate it – or maybe that’s just me.)
The only thing I would say from my experience is that the best way I have found to edit music (and let’s face it most of the time most of the music we use needs editing) is to cut it in a secondary storyline. That makes both the actual music editing easier and the swapping out of different music choices and edits.
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
Sounds like a nightmare. Just use Premiere Pro… 😉
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“THAT’S our fail-safe point. Up until here, we still have enough track to stop the locomotive before it plunges into the ravine… But after this windmill it’s the future or bust.” -
There are certainly some issues that make editing this in X more difficult, but there are certain things I would do to make it easier.
First of all, I wouldn’t edit the broll as connected clips. They would be in the primary storyline along with the bites. The only connected clips would be any clips that were used to cover part of the bite. If I had to swap sound bites around in my sequence, the only broll shots I would have to worry about would be the ones attached to the bite, and since often those shots are related directly to what was being said in the bite, chances are I would want them to travel with the bite anyway. If not, well, then I would temporarily compound the connected clips and slide them off the clip I was moving. Make the change and then slide the compound back and break it up.
For music, I’d be tempted to use a secondary storyline depending on how much music editing was required. The secondary storyline gives me the maximum flexibility for that. If I had to change the music, I’d create another secondary storyline to cut that music and just disable or delete the previous music. However, re-editing the broll segments would be easy because they would be in the primary storyline.
One of the workflows that editors use in a track system that is hardest to drop in X, is the notion that soundbites need to be in track 1, and broll shots in track 2. We do this in track systems because it makes it easier to keep track of things, and to make changes to bites. In X, it’s actually easier NOT to do things this way because of the nature of connected clips.
That doesn’t mean some changes might not require extra work, but it doesn’t seem all that more difficult to me than editing in a track based NLE.
Andy
https://www.timesavertutorials.com
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If you need to keep the relative position of connected clips, but change the primary storyline, then you move the clips out of the primary first (command-option-up). You then replace the gaps that are left over, or add as new connected until your “committed”, and then move those clips in to the primary.
The primary doesn’t have to be all sound bytes or music only all the time, it can be both.
With tracks, the “driving” element of the edit bounces around from track to track (music, soundbyte w/video, soundbyte w/broll, whatever determines the length of that section/edit). In X, you add it to the primary, and everything else builds around that as the primary determines the length. Sometimes, you have to move elements in and out of the primary just as you have to rearrange tracks every once in a while.
As far as changing the shots because the beat structure changes, that happens in 7, too, no real difference there. It’s still editing and you’ll have to adjust timings.
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[Andy Neil] ”
One of the workflows that editors use in a track system that is hardest to drop in X, is the notion that soundbites need to be in track 1, and broll shots in track 2. We do this in track systems because it makes it easier to keep track of things, and to make changes to bites. In X, it’s actually easier NOT to do things this way because of the nature of connected clips.”This does raise the question which most of the time seems to be the hardest thing to get right, namely what actually DOES go into the primary storyline. A lot of the time you end up wondering whether it’s not easier to dispense with the primary altogether, leave it as a gap clip (or several) and just have stuff hanging off it …
Simon Ubsdell
http://www.tokyo-uk.com -
Oliver,
I hear echoes of this thread in your question:
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/335/23973#26781
… though you’ve posed the question differently (and probably in a more useful manner).
Most interesting to me in that thread were Jeremy’s comments (hinted at here).
I do find this a bit shocking as I thought X was actually designed to make these sorts of complications easy to deal with (you seem to think they’re more difficult). I also find the description of issues you face on this project as a pretty good glimpse of my everyday, so I’m also thinking I’m probably out of touch with what most editors face here?
Franz.
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This brings up a BIG feature request for me that would help a lot in these scenarios. I just helped my wife cut a 4 min. wedding sizzle for her best friend and the lack of track locks drove me nuts. I’m used to not having track locks since normally I would use Sony Vegas for these types of cuts – but with Vegas I can right-click on any clip – audio, video, still and select “LOCK”. This will lock the media in place until i unlock it. I can also highlight a group of clips and LOCK them or even GROUP them so they stay together.
The LOCK and GROUP features would be awesome to have in FCPX and ease the pain of not having actual tracks. For instance once you have your music edited you can then LOCK it in place and cut away with or without the magnetic timeline – this makes it easy to cut to music similar to locking a track in FCP7. Actually the GROUP/UNGROUP feature is now just a right-click away in Premiere CS6 – something Vegas has had for over a decade…
Lance Bachelder
Writer, Editor, Director
Irvine, California -
There is a lot of debate about the Primary track in FCPX but for me use of the primary is something that became second nature after I spent time cutting in FCPX, I decided to use it in exactly the same way as I used track 1 in FCP classic i.e usually for narrative or structural elements. If I’m cutting to a music track I always attach this to a gap clip at the start of the edit, in FCP7 I would always put this on track 3 & 4.
You eventually find yourself getting used to the decisions required for moving, adding or deleting clips in it. Like any NLE you need to fundamentally understand what the consequence of every edit you do has on the timeline.The primary still gives you same options as you had in FCP7 they are just available in a vastly different way sometimes. I use the Position tool a lot, gap clips are much more important, especially when you wish to keep B Roll in place. I also use “lift from storyline” a lot as well
Initially it’s not anywhere near as intuitive as tracks of course but it’s surprising how the logic of it (or not depending on your viewpoint) eventually kicks in, most of the time I find the primary works WITH me but occasionally it’ll throw up a roadblock or two, but I got those in FCP7 too.
Just dropping a gap clip in the primary and building everything as connected clips is not the way to go, you may as well just use Premiere Pro as suggested earlier.
Steve Connor
“FCPX Professional”
Adrenalin Television -
When hey demoed x at he super meet, Randy ( the designer) didn’t mix broll in the primary. So they obviously weren’t thinking that way. But if it’s easier it’s easier. Wouldnt putting it I the primary overwrite the interview visual? Or are people saying put the interview UNDER the primary, making IT connected to the broll? Same problem. Move or change broll and now the audio moves. Nope. The culprit here is connected clips. Connected clips should simply be an option, not a requirement. Like the magnetic timeline.
But it is very Apple. Everything works great as long as you do it Apples way. 🙂
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