Does the XL-H1 Still hold up?

[Declan Smith]

I wouldn’t be without my XL-H1. It’s an unbelievably versatile and flexible camera both with lenses / adapters and more importantly, picture control (and global shutter!!). It’s audio section is simply excellent as well. A very underrated and forgotten camera.

Yes, it’s long in the tooth, but the picture is still incredible, if HD is what you’re after. Just to be clear though, the XL-H1 is a 4:2:2 camera not 4:2:0. The only thing that makes the XL-H1 apparently 4:2:0 is recording to HDV (either tape or firewire).

I use the Atomos Samurai external recorder and record HD-SDI out of the camera which retains the full 4:2:2 signal. I can’t comment on how it will cut with the XA-20 but I have successfully cut in Canon 7D footage (and the XL-H1 picture is better).

It doesn’t natively have the shallow depth of field, but sometimes this alone can be a bonus, especially for event filming, and if that’s really required, I use a lens adapter. Also the EF adapter is great for telephoto (especially wildlife) as the sensor uses the best part of the lens (the middle) and hence the magnification factor.

It’s going to be down to a personal choice, but I have always rated the XL cameras as my favourite, and the XL-H1 being at the top of that tree. You need to be familiar with it’s limitation as well such as low light performance, dynamic range etc. All of these factors will need to be taken into account.

Declan Smith
https://www.madpanic.tv
After Effects CS6/ FCS3 / Canon XLH1 / Canon 7D / Reason / Cubase

“it’s either binary or it’s not”

[Rob Gutermuth]

Yes, I wonder how much better the SDI capture would be at 4:2:2 most likely a dumb question, but I do know that the camera will only output video and not audio in that stream, unlike the S version…. so, I’d still need something else to capture the audio… correct?

I actually also love the camera – but it’s a lot to deal with, having ext fw drive, adapters, etc etc – I was hoping someone could comment too about the XF300 vs the XL-H1… all things being equal…

I guess what I really want to know, if I usually just use the 20x lens on the XL-H1, (so apples to apples) – what would I love/hate about shooting with an XF300 vs the XL-H1?

Thanks much!

Rob Gutermuth
Media Creations

[Declan Smith]

If you use the Atomos Samurai, that has an analogue audio input which can take the audio output from the XL-H1. So in short, this will simultaneously record video from HD-SDI, and audio from analogue output and the result is synched audio in a ProRes 422 (or DNxHD) file. No need for an additional device.

Declan Smith
https://www.madpanic.tv
After Effects CS6/ FCS3 / Canon XLH1 / Canon 7D / Reason / Cubase

“it’s either binary or it’s not”

[Rob Gutermuth]

Yeah, I just checked that out – nice box – you are talking about the Blade 5?

The thing is though, isn’t the resolution still 1440×1080? I get that the color space is better, and uncompressed, but 1920×1080 is still a bigger frame? Am I missing something here?

does the 4:2:2 footage “blow away” the compressed footage from tape? or is it only a little bit better? I hate to drop a grand on something that wouldn’t make that much of a difference, but I like the whole hot swap drive thing… if SSD drives were a little cheaper, that would be a no brainer!

have you had any issues with these dropping any frames at all? do you use HDD or SDD drives? Apple Pro-res I take it? what if I want to use the footage in Premiere Pro? I see there is a choice for Avid, but how about Premiere?

Thanks

Rob Gutermuth
Media Creations

[Todd Terry]

I can’t comment about the “vs” situation, but I’ll gladly chime in about the H1.

The H1 was, and remains, one of my favorite cameras of all time. I used it daily for about 5 years before retiring it a couple of years ago (although we didn’t use it “stock,” we used it with a P+S Technik 35mm lens adapter and cine primes). It’s just an awesome awesome camera.

And you hit the nail on the head about control. One of the things I loved about the H1 (and same with the C300 that I shoot now), is that there are tons of actual real physical buttons/switches on the camera… if you want to dial in a slightly different color temperature, or almost any other change, you can do that on the fly and never have to stop and dig into a menu (hate menus). That and its picture performance is just incredible. With our lens converter we were able to intercut it with real 35mm film on a number of occasions and it was absolutely seamless.

When we retired it, I thought about selling it, but it broke my heart to think that I could only get about $1500 for what was a $10,000 camera, so we kept it (same for the lens converter, which was $13,000 new, and I’d be lucky to get $500 now). So we are definitely keeping it as a backup rig. I will say that we have had to replace the “guts” of the camera (tape transport mechanism, heads, etc.) twice, but considering that was over several years and very heavy use, I’m not complaining about that. It also has four dead pixels but they really don’t show up unless we crank the gain way up in dark situations, so that’s not too much of a factor.

I’ve considered buying a recorder to use with it, but like yours ours is an early-model H1 before the audio signal was embedded in the HD-SDI (I still don’t know why Canon did that) so it limits our recorder choice, but as was pointed out it still can be done.

In your case I definitely wouldn’t ditch the H1.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Rob Gutermuth]

Hi Todd,

It’s really not that I dislike the H1 – I wish Canon would have made the XL-H2 with Card media replacing tape, etc… but everyone can dream.

So your upgrade path was to the C300 – sure, but it’s $15K with lenses, correct?….

Im looking more in the $3-4K market – was hoping that the XF300 would be close to the H1 for buttons and overrides – yes, I love that you can adjust the gain settings by turning a knob, etc… color temp, etc…

I just sold my original XL1 – I think I kept it for sentimental reasons since it was my very first Digital Camera… I started with an L1, so I’ve always been a fan of this line…

I own a few XH-A1s’s as well, and those are like the H1’s little brother – the footage matches very very well… but HDV is getting long in the tooth, and I’m looking to make a leap, but need multi cams…

does anyone out there have both experience with the H1 and the XF300 or 305?

BTW the reason Canon didn’t include audio was that because of the licensing required, it would have added a Grand to the camera – but they DID do it with the H1s of course… Im considering those as well as another way to go…. again, all about price.

Rob Gutermuth
Media Creations

[Declan Smith]

The resolution is FULL HD, i.e. 1920×1080 when recorded through the HD-SDI. As for the question is it better, then visually you can see a difference in that you don’t get the blockiness around edges, important for green screen as is the 4:2:2 colour space. You can also push colour correction a little further too because of the colour space. One thing you may notice though is a little more noise as this gets masked by the HDV codec, but having said that, the NR settings on the XL-H1 can get rid of it (as can post production tools like neat video if really really needed).

I use the original Samurai and picked one up on ebay. The screen isn’t as good as the latest, but as a framing tool, it’s fine. I use the XL-H1 viewfinder for focus anyway (FU-1000).

I have not had issues with dropping frames. I have used this configuration to record a 2 hour stage performance. I use both HDD and SSD, mostly SSD as the price of these has fallen. I generally record in ProRes 422 as I edit on a Mac using Premiere Pro and Final Cut Pro. If I was using a PC I would probably record on DNxHD.

As for Samurai, I rate this product highly as well!

Declan Smith
https://www.madpanic.tv
After Effects CS6/ FCS3 / Canon XLH1 / Canon 7D / Reason / Cubase

“it’s either binary or it’s not”

[Todd Terry]

[Rob Gutermuth] “So your upgrade path was to the C300 – sure, but it’s $15K with lenses, correct?….”

Well, we got the C300 when they first came out. The body was, if I recall, $20,000 then. Major price drop though, you can buy it for $6500 now. That should make me go “Grrrr!’ (and does a little bit), but I really don’t begrudge it as the C300 has been worth every penny. Canon has slashed the current C300 prices because the C300 MarkII will be out later this year ($16,000 for the body).

As for “with lenses,” it just depends on the glass you want. I shoot superspeed primes that are worth several times as much as the camera body… but on the rare occasions that I use a zoom I use a dirt-cheap vintage Russian Foton zoom that you could probably buy for a grand or less. I’ve used the same lenses with multiple cameras through the years (the C300, the H1, and 35mm film cameras).

That part is wildly variable… you can get a Canon SLR EF mount zoom (admittedly pretty crappy) for $200… or you can get a set of matched Cooke PL mount primes for $100,000+.

Canon presently has two lenses that are on my wish list… but I don’t have them (yet… maybe someday) because they both clock in at just under $40K each.

The good thing about glass though is that it holds its value. Just about every piece of gear we own starts depreciating like crazy the second you drive it off the lot (especially anything computer or electronic-camera related), but lenses do not. In some cases lenses even appreciate…. we paid more for our primes than the previous owner did, and if I were to sell them today I could get substantially more for them than I paid myself. I always beg people to not skimp on lenses… they are definitely the top of importance in the food chain, and your images will never be any better than your worst piece of glass.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com

[Rob Gutermuth]

Being that Im also a photographer, I do own many canon primes and zooms, so some are very fast.

I guess I’ve been of the mindset that the cameras are still separate in my head – I own a 6D and love it, but would never use it to film something like a long form video (wedding, recital, play, etc) – but for a 60 second commercial? or head shot interviews, etc? sure!

so, yes, good glass is good glass, and my guess is that 20 years from now, these lenses will be a fortune to buy new, if they even make good glass still… and yes, I have seen that myself – certain builds fetch higher prices than others… not just the speed of the lens, but other factors as well… and of course, the L lenses are a whole other story…. you get what you pay for in lenses.

how well does the C300 work in something like iAF, if the lens is set at something like f/4 or f/5.6 – if you are zooming, will it keep focus on a moving object? (sports games come to mind here)

$6500 is a bargin for that camera for sure… but even that, knowing it will be 1/2 that in 2 years, like all this stuff, it keeps diving in value.

still hoping for someone to chime in about the XF300 – it’s been out for a couple of years now, and I would love to hear about controls, etc… people say it’s a better camera than the xl-h1… but “better” how? just image quality?

Rob Gutermuth
Media Creations

[Todd Terry]

[Rob Gutermuth] “I guess I’ve been of the mindset that the cameras are still separate in my head”

I completely agree, I’m definitely not a DSLR fanboy for cine work. We’ve used our T2i and 6D on rare occasions for “emergency” motion footage work, but I hate it hate it hate it. Don’t get me wrong, a DSLR is a fantastic tool, but for cine work I still think it’s a wrench when you need a screwdriver.

[Rob Gutermuth] “good glass is good glass, and my guess is that 20 years from now, these lenses will be a fortune to buy new”

Very very true. Newer is definitely not better when it comes to glass. My most-used lenses are from the 80s (Panavision re-barreled Leitz/Leica f/1.3 primes) and it would be almost impossible to find “new” lenses today that are comparable, without spending roughly the equivalent of a new decent-sized house (literally). I know a couple of big-time DPs who prefer not to shoot with anything made after 1965. The Cooke Speed Panchros from the 1960s are especially in huge demand by feature-film DPs, and if you can find them they cost several times what they did when new.

[Rob Gutermuth] “how well does the C300 work in something like iAF”

Couldn’t say, I manual-focus only, my lenses are all PL mount (as is my camera body), so obviously there is no auto-anything. I focus the old-school Hollywood way… with my bare hand like an animal (well, with a follow-focus rig). It is my understanding that the upcoming C300 MarkII has some fairly advanced autofocusing (in the EF mount version only, obviously), but couldn’t say how well it works.

T2

__________________________________
Todd Terry
Creative Director
Fantastic Plastic Entertainment, Inc.
fantasticplastic.com